D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

[Steely Dan]

And yet it's little different from e.g. Mousferatu's. Or The Shadow's.

Quite different from Mousferatu, don't try to ride his coattails.

Have no idea what The Shadow was on about, aside from implying that people who enjoy alignment/Planescape are evil.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Maybe you should go back and re-read what I posted... Everything you've stuck up as an example is differentiated in ways beyond just where it comes from (abilities, personality, powers, etc.)... you do realize that right? Now go read what @pemerton said about unicorns... now tell me again how what you are saying here in any way answers the question I asked him...

I wasn't answering the first question. I was answering a follow up you asked rather than one I'd glossed over.

To answer the first, the point of different cosmological framings is that if cosmology doesn't impact the setting of the game then it's utterly pointless. Cosmology should both reflect and evoke the mood of the game. The wrong cosmology (see numerous rants about the Great Wheel on this thread, not just mine) can utterly undercut the mood and the tone of the game. The point of changing the cosmology is to allow a broader range of games to work. But because mythology is varied, you can fit creatures like unicorns into more than one cosmology.

In some settings some origins do not exist. Does faerie/the Feywild exist in yours? If it does, unicorns are probably creatures of faerie. But if it doesn't this need not mean that unicorns must not exist. Unicorns can fit settings without faerie even if by default they are creatures of faerie.

 

[Sunseeker]

To argue that there is no multiverse in a fantasy cosmology such as D&D would be like DC claiming that everything before the NU52 didn't exist. Sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming at the top of your lungs doesn't make things go away. Including the multiverse is the most logical approach to D&D and potentially the most lucrative.

 

[The Shadow]

Have no idea what The Shadow was on about, aside from implying that people who enjoy alignment/Planescape are evil.

I'll admit my comment was rather thread-derailing and I regret making it.

But I must protest that I in no way said that people who enjoy alignment and/or Planescape were or are evil. I was talking about adherence to a philosophy, which is something more sweeping than enjoying a game mechanic or a setting. It's true that the... odor... of that philosophy is something that is a serious turn-off for me. I consider it a serious flaw in (as Mouseferatu said) Dragonlance, and the Gord the Rogue books and, yes, Planescape. (Though my dislike of Planescape has at least as much to do with a variety of other things that are purely matters of taste.)

I did not even say that adherents of that philosophy were especially evil. We all have evil impulses; I certainly do. The temptation to rationalize them is always there, for all of us. (If you're an exception, then I certainly apologize.) The ludicrous idea that good and evil are subject to some sort of 'balance' is certainly one mode of such rationalizing.

With this, I let the subject lie; no need to derail the thread further. As I said, I regret making that original statement. If you want the last word, feel free.

 

[The Shadow]

To argue that there is no multiverse in a fantasy cosmology such as D&D would be like DC claiming that everything before the NU52 didn't exist. Sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming at the top of your lungs doesn't make things go away. Including the multiverse is the most logical approach to D&D and potentially the most lucrative.

Hmm. Who on this thread is sticking fingers in their ears and screaming at the top of their lungs, in your view?

I dislike the traditional D&D cosmology and tend to make up my own. This is a tantrum on my part?

 

[Sunseeker]

Hmm. Who on this thread is sticking fingers in their ears and screaming at the top of their lungs, in your view?

Noone, I was generally referring to the opposing concept of not including the multiverse. I didn't read the thread or pay attention to the discussion so I'm not talking about anyone in particular.

I dislike the traditional D&D cosmology and tend to make up my own. This is a tantrum on my part?

I was more speaking towards denying the cosmology on a corporate level than on a personal one.

 

[Imaro]

I wasn't answering the first question. I was answering a follow up you asked rather than one I'd glossed over.

Could you quote the question you were actually answering because I am going by what you quoted originally and I'm still unclear on what you were answering....

To answer the first, the point of different cosmological framings is that if cosmology doesn't impact the setting of the game then it's utterly pointless. Cosmology should both reflect and evoke the mood of the game. The wrong cosmology (see numerous rants about the Great Wheel on this thread, not just mine) can utterly undercut the mood and the tone of the game. The point of changing the cosmology is to allow a broader range of games to work. But because mythology is varied, you can fit creatures like unicorns into more than one cosmology.

In some settings some origins do not exist. Does faerie/the Feywild exist in yours? If it does, unicorns are probably creatures of faerie. But if it doesn't this need not mean that unicorns must not exist. Unicorns can fit settings without faerie even if by default they are creatures of faerie.

But if every unicorn regardless of it's origin has the same power, abilities, form and personality does it matter on a practical level whether it comes from a glade on the prime material plane or a grove on the Feywild or a cave in the Shadowfell?? I'd argue mechanically we've already established it doesn't since they don't change and thus how does it's thematics matter with no mechanics to back them up? i mean isn't this why most 4e fans love their 4e monsters?

 

[Mouseferatu]

But if every unicorn regardless of it's origin has the same power, abilities, form and personality does it matter on a practical level whether it comes from a glade on the prime material plane or a grove on the Feywild or a cave in the Shadowfell?? I'd argue mechanically we've already established it doesn't since they don't change and thus how does it's thematics matter with no mechanics to back them up? i mean isn't this why most 4e fans love their 4e monsters?

Lots of D&D thematics have no mechanical backup, but are still important for story/RP reasons. Succubu are succubi, whether they're demons, devils, or neither. If I say, in my campaign world, that blue dragons arctually a shiny metallic, and thus often mistaken for silver dragons, there's no mechanical change there, but it's certainly an important one. Or, for a more relevant example: 4e tied all liches in with Orcus; 5e's gone back to just making that one possibility. In either case, there's no mechanical change, but you can bet it makes a difference to any ongoing campaigns involving liches.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The Great Wheel is actually worse than that. If Balance is King (as it explicitly is) then good is pointless. If you do good and Balance is King then there's an equal amount of evil to balance it out. If I set up an orphanage and save two dozen orphans that would be a good act. An equal amount of evil would happen in order to balance it out. And my actions have made that act necessary. Which means that in the grand scheme of things my actions haven't done any good. I can't even say "It matters to that starfish" without being aware that there are just as many starfish that my acts are making things worse for because balance. By trying to do good I'm dooming starfish. And it matters to those starfish. The closest you can get to doing lasting good in the world is by utilitarian accounting along the lines of Omelas - if you consider that to be an acceptable compromise. On the other hand I can do evil freely. If I launch a campaign of looting and pillaging I'm having fun and getting rich. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that somewhere someone else is creating an orphanage that's cancelling out my evil. I'm having fun and getting rich.

I'm gonna call shenanigans on this unless you can give me at least the Planescape book that talks about all that (don't even have to give me a page).

I've been running Planescape for years and years, and that is simply not accurate. There's no great magic that detects some good was done here, so more evil has to happen here. In fact, the Planes can shift so much due to belief that you can affect the world on a real, physical, level. Layers can shift between planes, gatetowns can fall into planes, these things are shifts in philosophy and reality on grand scales that change the nature of the Multiverse itself. And PCs can effect these and even greater changes if they have the knowledge, the power, and the belief to do so. That is what Planescape is about, even when the Great Wheel is involved.

But, yeah, if you can tell me where I can find a passage that says good causes evil, I'm all ears.

 

[Imaro]

Lots of D&D thematics have no mechanical backup, but are still important for story/RP reasons. Succubu are succubi, whether their demons, devils, or neither. If I say, in my campaign world, that blue dragons arctually a shiny metallic, and thus often mistaken for silver dragons, there's no mechanical change there, but it's certainly an important one. Or, for a more relevant example: 4e tied all liches in with Orcus; 5e's gone back to just making that one possibility. In either case, there's no mechanical change, but you can bet it makes a difference to any ongoing campaigns involving liches.

Oh believe me I know this and I agree but to see someone who is known for making statements about how important mechanical backup is to thematics then state he uses the same unicorn irregardless of such is interesting and why I asked @pemerton the question... though it seems everyone but him has decided to answer.

EDIT Though I am curious, [MENTION=1288]Mouseferatu[/MENTION] ... above you've picked something that is readily apparent but if the only thing you are changing is the origin of the blue dragon, say he comes from the plane of lightning... but everything else is (mechanics, appearance, etc.) is the same... how does that impact play?