The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm quite fond of it as well. I find I love its magic system for example. However, I wouldn't want to face dragons with a PC operating under the rules from The Black Company.

I don't really want to get into how to best model a novel. But I'll say this. Despite their high levels, characters in the novels never seem to become immune to death. Would you agree with this?

Because of that, it's very hard to properly model the dramatic flow of a story in a game. In classic tales of Robin Hood, for example, he beats many situations seemingly more dire than the one that eventually resulted in his death. You can't exactly make that work in D&D terms...

I don't know yet about D&D, but I have some limited experience in Torg.
Torg plays very cineatic/pulpy. Taking down enemies can be done with guns, but also with feints, tests of will, magic and outmaneuvering. Characters in Torg gain "Possibilities", which they can use to improve rolls (and sometimes need to pay off racial special abilities)

An important part of the encounter system is the Drama Deck. It contains of a large set of cards, that serve 3 purposes:
- Initiative and special combat situations. This determines who may begin to act, and what othe benefits or penalties the characters gain.
- A solution system for non-combat situations, where you need to succeed checks to basically gain completion points to finish a task.
- A player card that allows the player to gain certain benefits or grant them to others. Some of the are more useful in combat, some have out of combat purposes (like starting a "Romance" subplot or finding a connection that can help the PC out)

The encounter system distinguishes between regular and "Dramatic" encounters.
In the first case, the benefit is always for the PCs. They often win initiative, they get additional actions, can add an extra d20 to their result and so on, while the NPCs tend to fatigue, break off or just generally fail in whatever they attempt.
In a dramatic encounter, the table is turned - suddenly, the deck is more in favor of the NPCs. These are the kind of encounters where the PCs fight against real hard enemies, enemies with their own possibilities to spend, and that are generally competent. These are combats where it's easily possible to die.

The dramatic encounters are for the types of scenes where heroes in movies and books can die - or win ... The system doesn't really support random PC death (unless they are stupid, which happens ) outside of dramatic encounters.

Transferring such a system to D&D is probably impossible directly. Basically, non-dramatic encounters (in 3E) can be emulated with fighting against lower level/CR foes, while dramatic scenes are against higher level PCs. But it's still not the same sense of dynamic, I think.

 

[KarinsDad]

A first level Saga Soldier (Con 14) has 32 hit points.

A blaster pistol does 3d8 (avg 13.5) damage. The first hit, on average, drops him to 18 hit points. No second wind yet. The second drops him to about 5. Second Wind kicks in and bumps him back to 19. One more shot and he's at 6 hp. If he takes one more shot, he's down for the count.

If he has an 18 Con, a few points less damage than average will result in him still standing after 4 hits.

If he has Extra Second Wind, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Extra Second Wind and Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 5 shots in a combat. With this and a 17 Con, he could take 6 shots in a combat. 33 - 13.5 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 - 13.5 = 3. An 18 Con would result in 7 hits left over.

I didn't say that it would happen every time, I said it could happen and it can happen 3 times most battles, even with the 14 Con and no special abilities in this area.

The point is, the guy's a tank at first level. A Clone Trooper can only take 2 blaster hits. The first level Soldier can be designed to take 6 hits.

 

[KarinsDad]

Again, "cut to ribbons in real life," got it. But if you personally saw someone get thrown through a plate glass window in real life with only minor scratches, would you treat them like a god incarnate, or Bruce Willis' character from unbreakable? Or would you just think they were one lucky son of a gun?

Same question, different miracle: You've just watched someone swat away a swarm of arrows so thick they blocked out the sun. Do you think them lucky, or they've got some trick up their sleeve (like being a god in human form, for instance)? In my opinion, They're both miracles, but they're two completely different levels of miracle.

And that's the difference that people are not comprehending.

The first Miracle is plausible. Not likely, but possible. A once in a blue moon event.

The other is not ever plausible.

The first is ok for DND low level PCs, the second is not.

 

[AllisterH]

And that's the difference that people are not comprehending.

The first Miracle is plausible. Not likely, but possible. A once in a blue moon event.

The other is not ever plausible.

The first is ok for DND low level PCs, the second is not.

Actually, I think that's the point others have been making. The first Miracle ISN'T plausible. It is JUST as unlikely as a guy who can swat a hundred arrows out of the air with one swing.

The difference is that we have grown up on a diet of action movies where doing so is just something a hero does and walks away from with just a scratch. Thus, it is seen as something a PC can do because that isn't considered exotic.

Still, the ones who support the "20th level fighter is just a 1st level fighter but better" still haven't dealt with how such a character is supposed to be "equal" in options as a 20th level mage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Giving players the ability to boost themselves at appropriate times makes the game over-the-top? Uh, well, the descriptions I would use would be flexible and rewarding.

There is a difference between boosting abilities and saying:

Player: "No Mr. DM, I did not die falling a thousand feet. Even though the rules say I died, I really didn't because of the "Pull My Butt Out of the Fire" Force rule."

It's one thing to boost a roll with a Force Point. That's heroic. It's another to say "Nope, nope, falling into the Disintegration Disposal Bin didn't kill me". That's lame. If you want to play a game where death is prevented, play Monopoly.

This use of Force Points to prevent death IS over the top. Death Immunity makes the game non-dangerous and LESS fun for some of us. Not more fun. It makes it a yawn. There is no thrill if you can just go to the RPG and play it like a computer game and reset. At least for some people.

Hopefully, this application of Force or Action points will not exist in 4E. That is what Raise Dead is for. It requires effort and resources to prevent death in DND. Not a silly death immune rule.

It's understandable to have this type of rule in Star Wars where the heroes always win (or at least survive), but not in DND. Different genre.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Still, the ones who support the "20th level fighter is just a 1st level fighter but better" still haven't dealt with how such a character is supposed to be "equal" in options as a 20th level mage.

He's not supposed to be. They are completely different classes with completely different mechanics. However, in my experience, the fighter's options are of equal or superior effectiveness in dealing damage. (May have been different had I played in a game that allowed those terrible orb spells, Energy Substitution, Sudden metamagic, or Arcane Mastery.)
The wizard has more options but many of them are of limited use (he can run out of spells).
The fighter has fewer options but they are of unlimited use.
The warlock is closer to the fighter -- fewer options, unlimited use.

4E is going for a radically different game design. I'll be happy to go back to BECMI.

 

[KarinsDad]

Still, the ones who support the "20th level fighter is just a 1st level fighter but better" still haven't dealt with how such a character is supposed to be "equal" in options as a 20th level mage.

I actually do not support that. I support a 20th level Fighter having extraordinary abilities. I still do not think he should Fly or Teleport though.

DND 3E introduced super powers with things like Hide in Plain Sight. It was a bit of a problem for some DMs. It's ok to have these types of abilities at high levels (like 15), but not at 8. JMO.

 

[glass]

He's not supposed to be.

I, for one, thank goodness that the designers do not think the way you do.


glass.

 

[AllisterH]

He's not supposed to be. They are completely different classes with completely different mechanics. However, in my experience, the fighter's options are of equal or superior effectiveness in dealing damage. (May have been different had I played in a game that allowed those terrible orb spells, Energy Substitution, Sudden metamagic, or Arcane Mastery.)
The wizard has more options but many of them are of limited use (he can run out of spells).
The fighter has fewer options but they are of unlimited use.
The warlock is closer to the fighter -- fewer options, unlimited use.

4E is going for a radically different game design. I'll be happy to go back to BECMI.

I played 1e, 2e and 3e. Is BECM1 that different that high level wizards (level 11+) didn't rule the roost?

I mean, unless the wizard was played less effective than usual or the fighter got the drop on the wizard (wizard just before memorizing and fighter placed right in wizard's face), unless a fighter had SIGNIFICANT magical assistance, a 11th level wizard could tear to shreds even a 20th level fighter in 1e through 3.x. Even the scenarios I listed require magic.

Simple example:
Wizard uses flight and simply starts lobbing fireballs from over 100 yards away straight up.
Wizard simply drops force cage on fighter.

MU through the years have ALWAYS had so many options over the years that I personally always believed that high-level fighters were intended to be the servants since really, they don't shape the campaign world.

You could run an adventure/campaign for a magic item less 20th level fighter that is basically the same adventure for a 1st level fighter but the wizard simply destroys this because of its options.

That's why I never considered the "limited nature of spells" a balancing feature since D&D adventures assume you have an appropriate level mage in your party. If you didn't you got one either by hiring one or resting.

Fighters ARE on a limited budget as well. Namely the budget of the clerics/wizards.

 

[kigmatzomat]

kigmatzomat: Keep in mind that nearly all maneuvers have prerequisites. ... Sure, the guy might become an 11th-level initiator suddenly, but he'll have to waste probably all but 1 of his maneuvers known just on learning the 1st and 2nd level maneuvers needed to qualify for the single 6th-level maneuver he wants.

I did some character builds and it's not that hard. Most of the disciplines have at least one 4th or 5th level maneuver that has no pre-req, probably to allow those 10th level Warblades & Crusaders to branch out without taking a 1st level maneuver.

Anything 20/Warblade1:
Moment of Perfect Mind Pre:0 Concentration instead of Will Save
or
Action before Thought Pre:0 Concentration instead of Ref Save
or
Rapid Counter Pre:0 Use attack roll to block
or
Insightful Strike Pre:0 Damage = Concentration (d20+Con+Skill)

Emerald Razor Pre:1 Attack goes against Touch AC
Greater Insightful Strike Pre:2 damage =2x Concentration(d20+Con+Skill)
Hear the Air Stance Pre:2 30' blindsense, +5 insight Listen

This character now has permanent blindsense 30', +5 Listen checks, gets one attack/encounter as a touch attack (on par with a psionic feat), gets another attack/encounter that gets to use 2d20+extras for damage, plus either a boost to a weak save, a parry, or an attack that uses d20+extras for damage.

Yeah, that's a sucky dip.

Even at Anything10/Warblade 1 you get:
Insightful Strike Pre:0 Damage = Concentration (d20+Con+Skill)
Emerald Razor Pre:1 Attack goes against Touch AC
Pearl of Black Doubt Stance Pre:2 Gain +2 dodge every time someone misses you

Or:
Wall of Blades Pre:0 use attack roll to block
or
Steel Wind Pre:0 get 2 attacks as Standard action

Iron Heart Surge Pre: 1IH dispel effect on self, +2 attack bonus 1/round
Absolute Steel Stance Pre: 1IH +10ft move, +2 dodge if move 10'+
Bone Crusher Pre:0 +4d6 dam and possibly +10 to crit confirms

The Adept can dispel negative effects, has a move bonus with a scout-like dodge, has a pretty mean attack that improves crits, and can either move and attack 2 targets or counter an attack.

Yup, this is a very dip friendly system. I'd have been happier if it had been capped to 4x the MA level. That would limit both the 20/1 and 10/1 to Initiatior 4th, or 1st and 2nd maneuvers. Still quite useful since virtually every stance is a equivalent to a feat but not quite so dip-friendly.