The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Stanoje]

If he has an 18 Con, a few points less damage than average will result in him still standing after 4 hits.

If he has Extra Second Wind, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Extra Second Wind and Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 5 shots in a combat. With this and a 17 Con, he could take 6 shots in a combat. 33 - 13.5 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 - 13.5 = 3. An 18 Con would result in 7 hits left over.

I didn't say that it would happen every time, I said it could happen and it can happen 3 times most battles, even with the 14 Con and no special abilities in this area.

The point is, the guy's a tank at first level. A Clone Trooper can only take 2 blaster hits. The first level Soldier can be designed to take 6 hits.

Neither Tough as Nails nor Extra Second Wind allow you to use the Second Wind ability more than once per encounter. If you take both, you can use Second wind 3 times per day, but still only once in any given encounter.

Your example doesn't work.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Double post.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I played 1e, 2e and 3e. Is BECM1 that different that high level wizards (level 11+) didn't rule the roost?

I mean, unless the wizard was played less effective than usual or the fighter got the drop on the wizard (wizard just before memorizing and fighter placed right in wizard's face), unless a fighter had SIGNIFICANT magical assistance, a 11th level wizard could tear to shreds even a 20th level fighter in 1e through 3.x. Even the scenarios I listed require magic.

Simple example:
Wizard uses flight and simply starts lobbing fireballs from over 100 yards away straight up.
Wizard simply drops force cage on fighter.

MU through the years have ALWAYS had so many options over the years that I personally always believed that high-level fighters were intended to be the servants since really, they don't shape the campaign world.

You forget how hard it used to be to complete a spell pre 3e. All a fighter has to do is shoot an arrow at the wizard. He doesn't even have to hit. If the wizard uses his dex bonus to ac to dodge the arrow, he loses his spell. If he's hit, he loses the spell and takes damage. Now, you could say how he'd have stoneskin up, etc, but there's no reason the fighter couldn't be prepared as well. Neither exists in a vacuum. The fighter could have had protective spells cast upon him as well. The bottom line is whoever prepares best wins. And the fighter has more room for error. If he slips up, he's likely got a hundred hit points to absorb screwups. The wizard might have 45 or 50. Pre 3e, of course. Until 3e, a wizard was a badass, but a one hit point wonder. A high level fighter could take down a high level wizard in one round without breaking a sweat. The wizard could do the same only if the fighter rolled poorly on a save or die spell. 3e changed all that by giving the wizard more hit points, ac out the roof, and made it much easier to get a spell off. This changed the entire playing field.

 

[JohnSnow]

If he has an 18 Con, a few points less damage than average will result in him still standing after 4 hits.

If he has Extra Second Wind, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Extra Second Wind and Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 5 shots in a combat. With this and a 17 Con, he could take 6 shots in a combat. 33 - 13.5 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 - 13.5 = 3. An 18 Con would result in 7 hits left over.

I didn't say that it would happen every time, I said it could happen and it can happen 3 times most battles, even with the 14 Con and no special abilities in this area.

The point is, the guy's a tank at first level. A Clone Trooper can only take 2 blaster hits. The first level Soldier can be designed to take 6 hits.

Of course a character with an 18 Con can have an ungodly amount of hit points. Of course, the default array in Saga doesn't have any 18's in it, but I'll let that slide. If you're rolling, an 18 Con is a pretty rare stat. If you're point buy, it's a significant investment of character resources.

Similarly, your hypothetical character with both Extra Second Wind AND Tough as Nails has devoted his entire allotment of 1st-level resources (unless he's human) to achieving this.

And he's not actually taking 6 hits! He is surviving 6 very close shots from a blaster pistol. Again, think of Luke in A New Hope. He's a 1st-level Scout (about 26 hp). Stormtroopers are shooting at him. Constantly. And they never even get close.

Of course, if you're going to make the assumption of an 18 Con (highest available), the guy ought to be able to survive better than average shots. Oh, and those second winds only help as long as the guy's not getting shot multiple times in the same round.

Sorry, I just don't see this character as superhuman. Heroic? Yes. Everyone knows that getting shot hurts, so cinematically, you don't want characters who are getting shot 6 times. But are they getting shot "at" more than 24 times? More than 30? How many times does Luke get shot at? 100? If 1st level characters are still going to be on their feet after that, it's because they "lost hit points" in the process of avoiding all that blaster fire.

Blaster pistols can't work the way melee combat does. In melee combat, you can turn a "hit" into a grazing blow. With a firearm, that's harder to swallow.

Who wants to play the guy who cowers when the shooting starts because one hit would mean his death?

 

[Will]

As an aside, Torg is one of the most brilliant games, ever.

I've used it as an example of how social rules and characters can actually be a vital part of combat, rather than sitting on the sidelines yelling 'go team.'

Mustrum, did you know one of the Torg designers is on 4e dev team? I'm REALLY hopeful to see some Torg ideas make it in...

 

[Minicol]

Another piece of anecdotal evidence... My group consist of 6 people, and among us, we have 3 PHBs, 2 MMs, 2 DMGs, and 6 copies of Bo9S.

Back when there was serious management at WOTC, I remember an article stating that if everyone wants one feat, this means it is BROKEN.

Was not 4e a paragon of game balance supposed to improve on the oh-so-broken-and-not-fun 3.x bad,bad,bad game ?

 

[ruleslawyer]

And that's the difference that people are not comprehending.

The first Miracle is plausible. Not likely, but possible. A once in a blue moon event.

The other is not ever plausible.

The first is ok for DND low level PCs, the second is not.

If you read my original response to Henry, you'll note that I said that the sorts of feats undertaken in Excalibur, Dragonslayer, etc. are Heroic-tier. I was introducing the example from Hero specifically as something that is *above* Heroic-tier; i.e. not for "DND low level PCs." That said, as AllisterH noted, at some point one has to give fighters "martial" abilities that *approach* the magical in order to generate parity with the explicitly magical characters and monsters. 'Sall.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Sorry, I just don't see this character as superhuman. Heroic? Yes. Everyone knows that getting shot hurts, so cinematically, you don't want characters who are getting shot 6 times. But are they getting shot "at" more than 24 times? More than 30? How many times does Luke get shot at? 100? If 1st level characters are still going to be on their feet after that, it's because they "lost hit points" in the process of avoiding all that blaster fire.

Exactly. IMO, this whole deal would be avoided if D&D just explicitly called out vitality points and wound points as in SWd20. But I guess that system is too complicated for most people's tastes. Given that, it should be made apparent (maybe even carefully explained in the rules) that having 26 hit points simply means that you don't automatically die when someone shoots at you, takes a swing at you, or throws you through a plate glass window.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I played 1e, 2e and 3e. Is BECM1 that different that high level wizards (level 11+) didn't rule the roost?

Do you mean hypotethically or in actual play?
In actual play, there was not that much gameplay at levels above 8, due to the escalating XP requirements. And in actual play, there were very few wizards, since few players had the patience, caution, and luck to get one to survive the first few levels. RAW, you rolled for HP at 1st level, died at 0 HP, and all new characters were 1st-level. But let's go on to hypothetical.

Simple example:
Wizard uses flight and simply starts lobbing fireballs from over 100 yards away straight up.

I believe that in BECMI, you cannot cast and move in the same round. Round 1, cast fly. Round 2, fly up. Round 3, cast fireball. The fighter has gotten to shoot you several times (there is no Stoneskin or Greater Invisibility in BECMI). Also, you have to declare actions before rolling initiative. If you've declared "I'm casting Fireball," but the fighter wins initiative and damages you that round, then your spell is ruined.

Wizard simply drops force cage on fighter.

I am pretty sure that spell doesn't exist in BECMI.

That's why I never considered the "limited nature of spells" a balancing feature since D&D adventures assume you have an appropriate level mage in your party. If you didn't you got one either by hiring one or resting.

Resting? Every competent DM I have seen places some sort of constraints on the party. Time constraints, wandering monsters who attack you while you're resting, enemies who fortify if you delay, and so on. Every one. The limited nature of spells has actually mattered in every D&D game I've played in. If it hasn't been a factor in games you've played in, then I feel sorry for you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

As an aside, Torg is one of the most brilliant games, ever.

I've used it as an example of how social rules and characters can actually be a vital part of combat, rather than sitting on the sidelines yelling 'go team.'

Mustrum, did you know one of the Torg designers is on 4e dev team? I'm REALLY hopeful to see some Torg ideas make it in...

I don't know. Are any of the designers still around? I didn't play Torg often enough, since the group I played it with played it mostly before my time.. they have played all the adventures through - some several times. Nobody has the time and energy to pull off a few new adventures, and for some reason it turned out that the current setup of the group seems to have trouble grasping the right attitude for the game. We're too much into the D&D playstyle, I guess.