The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Nifft]

Really? Where's the page number so I can waive it at my players.

Unless you're being exceptionally clever, you want to say "wave".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Felix]

Well, not exactly. The evidence we have to date is that the Bo9S is one of the better sellers at Amazon. It seems that WotC is declaring success due to success.

People should check out Amazon's Category Rankings: Entertainment / Puzzles & Games / Role Playing & Fantasy / Dungeons & Dragons

Bo9S is ranked 20 on that list.

<snip>

All in all, the good sales of Bo9S does not appear to be a myth after all.

You checked your sources. Which of course was my advice, eh?

The OP took a look at some data that seemed inconsistent with what WotC had said about the sales of Bo9S; I took that and posted why one should not take WotC at their word. If WotC has something to back up their claim, all well and good. But I'm not going to believe the sky is blue and clouds are fluffy simply because they say so.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Back when there was serious management at WOTC, I remember an article stating that if everyone wants one feat, this means it is BROKEN.

Was not 4e a paragon of game balance supposed to improve on the oh-so-broken-and-not-fun 3.x bad,bad,bad game ?

You are right, but not EVERYONE wants to play classes out of the Bo9S. People want to play Clerics, Wizards, Warblades, Swordsages, Crusaders, Druids, Knights, Barbarians, Duskblades, Warlocks, Scouts, Sorcerers, Rogues.

So there are lots of options, it is just that some of them (mostly Fighters, Paladins, Bards, Monks, Rangers, Swashbucklers, Samurai, Spellthieves, Truenamers, Binders, Shadowmages) were fairly below average.

A rules item is only clearly broken if given a choice between it and EVERYTHING else that it is chosen almost every time. Playing a Wizard or a Swordsage? Tough choice. Fighter or Warblade? Almost for sure the Warblade.

 

[SteveC]

You know, I haven't seen anyone mention this, but one of the main reasons that I've seen the Book of Nine Swords as popular is due to the amount of discussion and questions that it has raised. There have been a number of comments from folks at WotC saying that the book generated a lot of discussion and emails to them about how the powers worked.

Now you may say that is not necessarily an indication of quality for the book (maybe quite the opposite) but if it generated significantly more traffic than say, Incarnium or the Book of Magic, I'd say that's because more people were interested in what it was trying to do. Is anyone complaining that we're not seeing a new magic system based on Incarnium? How about a core Binder? Nary a peep.

So I'd say that if 4E can make the Book of Nine Swords integrated into the core of the rules, and beyond that, make other spell casters as good with "just a dip" as a martial adept is, we'll see something genuinely impressive.

--Steve

 

[KarinsDad]

Neither Tough as Nails nor Extra Second Wind allow you to use the Second Wind ability more than once per encounter. If you take both, you can use Second wind 3 times per day, but still only once in any given encounter.

Your example doesn't work.

My error.

Thanks for pointing that out.

It makes it less egregious.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you read my original response to Henry, you'll note that I said that the sorts of feats undertaken in Excalibur, Dragonslayer, etc. are Heroic-tier. I was introducing the example from Hero specifically as something that is *above* Heroic-tier; i.e. not for "DND low level PCs." That said, as AllisterH noted, at some point one has to give fighters "martial" abilities that *approach* the magical in order to generate parity with the explicitly magical characters and monsters. 'Sall.

I do not disagree. My concern is with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of recent WotC products. My concern is that low level DND 4E PC martial types will have magical powers. Like, short distance dimension door type powers or 10 foot leaps and such. They are already given the equivalent of self healing.

 

[KarinsDad]

You said "1st level Saga PCs are pretty much immune to death in SWSE." And from that we were supposed to read an implied 18 Con?

Force Points allow a player to say "My PC is not dead, he is unconscious".

 

[AllisterH]

I do not disagree. My concern is with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of recent WotC products. My concern is that low level DND 4E PC martial types will have magical powers. Like, short distance dimension door type powers or 10 foot leaps and such. They are already given the equivalent of self healing.

Then the question is "What level is appropriate".

Personally, since I judge everything by what the other classes can do, if half of the classes (the magic users) have an equivalent power available at 5th level (as they do via the PHB II), becomes a decent choice over other options by 9th level and is for all intents and purposes, at-will by 15th level, giving said power to the melee classes at 25th level is bupkiss.

Reminds me of how some said that the Favoured Soul is overpowered since it gains wings and thus Flight at 17th level. Of course forgetting that in a normal game, even the mook's dogs have flight by 17th level thus making the "overpowered" ability not so impressive.

re: Bigger/badder aspect.
I disagree with this as well. In the last couple of years, the actual majority of products have been, well, underpowered. Tome of Magic, Incarnum, most of the new classes released. Sure, the PHB II & Bo9S see a lot of use, but that's because most of the other stuff released has been well, weaker, sorry to say, than most core stuff.

We tend to focus on the overpowering aspect if something gets released, forgetting the other 10 items/abilities/classes that got ignored because they were weaker.

In fact, the only "weaker" class I know of that has gotten serious traction was the warlock and I would argue/wager that the warlock is the most popular non-core class. So, it isn't that people are interested in powergaming, but the fact that much of the stuff releasedby WOTC was just plain boring.

 

[KarinsDad]

Side note: a character in SWSE who's reduced to 0 hp has to make a DC 10 Constitution check (at a -10 penalty!) or remain unconscious. If you fail by 5 or more, you die.

That means the 1st-level PC needs to roll a 20 or higher (slightly less if he's got a Con bonus) to recover. If he rolls a 15 or less (again, slightly lower if he has a CON bonus), he dies.

Technically, an unconscious character has no penalty to rolls. He has to be conscious and on the bottom tier of consciousness to get the -10 penalty. Nothing in the rules states that the two different levels on the condition track are cumulative in any way.

Also, that check is made 10 rounds after falling unconscious. Typically, enough time for allies to assist.

 

[KarinsDad]

re: Bigger/badder aspect.
I disagree with this as well. In the last couple of years, the actual majority of products have been, well, underpowered. Tome of Magic, Incarnum, most of the new classes released. Sure, the PHB II & Bo9S see a lot of use, but that's because most of the other stuff released has been well, weaker, sorry to say, than most core stuff.

We tend to focus on the overpowering aspect if something gets released, forgetting the other 10 items/abilities/classes that got ignored because they were weaker.

Here I have to disagree.

Weaker abilities are irrelevant in released material. They can be ignored. My players take some of them on occasion due to the interest factor, but they are not game breaking.

Stronger abilities are often game breaking. That's the key difference. And a lot of time, it is due to synergy of other abilities.

As an example, let's take something simple like Crystal Shard. 1D6 per Power Point of damage, ranged touch attack.

Sounds harmless enough. Until one combines it with four feats:

Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot, Psionic Meditation

This can occur at level 7 for a Wilder. Sure, it used up a lot of feats. But it is a combo that allows the Wilder to shoot 5D6 ranged touch attacks that have very few defenses nearly every round for a single PP. At 7th level. For 50+ rounds per day. If the Wilder faces a real powerful opponent, s/he can boost it to 14D6. 14D6 with few defenses will take out or seriously damage most opponents a 7th level Wilder will face.

Levitate up (which has a long enough duration to last several encounters) for 3 PP and then blast away until nothing is left standing. At higher level, use Empower instead against tough foes and use this with low PP against weaker foes.

Compare that to the Warlock. 4D6 instead of 5D6. He can throw Invocations on his blasts, but then again, the Wilder has powers similar to Invocations. And, the Warlock cannot boost it to 14D6.

Sure, the Warlock can do it all day long. But, 3.5 DND is not a game of all day long. It's a game of (typically a maximum of) 3 to 5 encounters of maybe 3 to 8 rounds each. The Wilder has the same amount of longevity as the Warlock for all intents and purposes, but has the Big Gun that the Warlock would have difficulty matching.

To play in this sandbox, the Warlock could choose similar options. If he takes a Psionic race and these same four feats, he too can boost his Eldritch Blast. At 7th level, he does 8D6. Double his normal damage output and he can put Invocations on it still. The only difference (IIRC, I do not have my book in front of me), is that Spell Resistance applies for the Warlock and his range is better. For the Wilder, SR does not apply.



Btw, I am not saying that this is a game breaking combination. It is potent though and it is more powerful than most single target attacks. The main magical defense against it is with a miss chance (in the case of the Wilder).

I suspect that when Fighters can Fly with Martial Powers in 4E, overly powerful combos like this might start becoming possible. I hope not, but this combo slipped into Psionics.