The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I didn't read all of the thread, but in case it hasn't been said already, it's not like WotC saw the sales numbers for B09S and decided it was so popular they had to put it in 4e; rather, they stuck their early ideas for the 4e Fighter class in Bo9S to try out different mechanical variations, and took people's (mostly positive) reactions to Bo9S into account as they continued to develop the fighter. (This is according to the timeline thing in R&C.)

 

[Nifft]

Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot, Psionic Meditation

This can occur at level 7 for a Wilder.

How does he get a feat at 7th level?

9th level for Wilder, 10th level for Psion (who does get a bonus feat then).

It's a nice combo, but it's not going to win wars -- the Close range is a significant limit. Anything that you want to plink to death will take not very many rounds to move outside of Close range, if there's no cover available, and then you'll have to un-levitate if you want to follow.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FireLance]

This can occur at level 7 for a Wilder.

To elaborate slightly on what Nifft said, Greater Psionic Shot has a prerequisite of +5 BAB. A pure-classed Wilder needs to be 9th level before he can select this feat.

In addition, while Psionic Meditation allows you to regain your psionic focus as a move action, it's still a DC 20 Concentration check. Hence, a wilder still won't be able to do this reliably once per round at the low-middle levels.

 

[Zurai]

Sorry, that Wilder combo (in addition to not being legal at level 7) is significantly weaker than a Warlock's eldritch blast. We'll bump it up to 9th since that's the first legal level.

1. 5d6 damage for the wilder vs 5d6 damage for the warlock. Point = Tie. Tiebreaker = Eldritch Essences to add debuffs or extra damage to the eldritch blast; Point = Warlock
2. Requires essentially a full-round action and a DC 20 concentration check every round vs requires a standard action. Point = Warlock
3. Affected by DR vs not affected by DR. Point = Warlock
4. Not affected by SR vs affected by SR. Point = Wilder (unless the Warlock uses Vitriolic Blast, but that's a Greater invocation and thus not usable at level 9)
5. Only affects a single target vs only affects a single target. Point = Tie. Tiebreaker = Blast Shapes to affect multiple targets; Point = Warlock
6. Usable ~80-90 times a day vs usable 14,400 times a day. Point = Warlock
7. 45' range vs 60' range. Point = Warlock (even more so with Eldritch Spear)



Frankly, your 'combo' requires 4 feats to use for a whopping 17.5 average damage at level 9. That's not even remotely close to powerful. A level 9 fighter will do nearly that much with just a single swing of his +2 greatsword and no feats (2d6+2 = 9 avg, +7 strength), and we all know how weak fighters are in 3E.

 

[small pumpkin man]

To elaborate slightly on what Nifft said, Greater Psionic Shot has a prerequisite of +5 BAB. A pure-classed Wilder needs to be 9th level before he can select this feat.

In addition, while Psionic Meditation allows you to regain your psionic focus as a move action, it's still a DC 20 Concentration check. Hence, a wilder still won't be able to do this reliably once per round at the low-middle levels.

To elaborate further, what you're saying is that this combination does 12d6, right? exactly the same as a empowered scorching ray does for a 7th level Wizard(a much better example than the Warlock, since they're much closer in role, power, and how they play), except it requires more investment?

 

[Nifft]

3. Affected by DR vs not affected by DR. Point = Warlock

Just to highlight how awesomely impartial I am, let's point out that this is an optional rule from a poorly received and unpopular supplement. If you just use what's in the SRD, crystal shard is not affected by DR.

Cheers, -- N

 

[outsider]

I do not disagree. My concern is with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of recent WotC products. My concern is that low level DND 4E PC martial types will have magical powers. Like, short distance dimension door type powers or 10 foot leaps and such. They are already given the equivalent of self healing.

You consider 10 foot leaps to be "magical powers"? You have quite a different opinion of what's magical than I do. The current standing long jump record is over 11 and a half feet. Am I missing something, or does your definition of "magical abilities unsuited for low level martial characters" include feats that have been surpassed by real world athletes?

 

[FireLance]

To elaborate further, what you're saying is that this combination does 12d6, right? exactly the same as a empowered scorching ray does for a 7th level Wizard(a much better example than the Warlock, since they're much closer in role, power, and how they play), except it requires more investment?

No, the combination still does 5d6 at level 5. In addition, the combination only costs the wilder 1 pp per manifestation, while the wizard needs to use a 4th-level slot (or about 7pp) to pull off an empowered scorching ray. The closest wizard equivalent would be the non-core lesser orb of [energy], which would deal 5d8 (or 5d6 for sonic) damage on a ranged touch attack when cast by a 9th-level wizard.

 

[FireLance]

How about stand in the middle of enough arrows to blot out the sun and swat them all away? Still possible? I hate to harp on my earlier question, but it illustrates my point that there's a difference in the "level of miracle" that the PCs are pulling off, here. One's more in line with previous D&D versions until recently, the other one is not.

By the way, I just remembered one particular scene from 300.

What a difference a shield makes.

 

[The Little Raven]

Force Points allow a player to say "My PC is not dead, he is unconscious".

The fact that they said Action Points are in doesn't mean that Force Points become Action Points. And Actions Points, in all previous incarnations, only allow you to stabilize while dying, not preventing death. And we still have death at -10 hp (unlike Star Wars), so the dying condition probably still exists.