The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[ruleslawyer]

Right now, my main frustration is with people who want anime or wuxia-flavored D&D. Some people are nice and polite and just say, "Gosh, wouldn't it be great if D&D handled my favorite style of fantasy, too." Far too many, though, seem bent on telling me that it's impossible to have fighters competitive with wizards at high levels without magic, that something isn't magic unless it involves a wizard casting spells, that I must love wizards and want to see fighters suffer because I don't like wuxia powers, that I'd like wuxia if I gave it a chance, that I'm just a grognard, that wuxia is the only way to keep D&D afloat, etc.

The other possibility is that maybe "people" don't want anime- or wuxia-flavored D&D, but are looking to certain abilities featured in anime or wuxia films as exemplars of what a high-level warrior should be able to do. Just as one might look to the Beowulf motion-capture flick, 300, or any number of other films that feature "physically impossible" feats of prowess that nonetheless work as "martial" abilities.

The problem with D&D in all its previous incarnations is that it requires the fighter to be a Christmas tree in order to even come close to a spellcaster in power. In many cases, it actually requires the fighter to rely on the spellcaster for any semblance of relevance. The designers originally attempted to create balance by giving wizards limited spells memorized, which if anything skews D&D further away from most fantasy (with the exception of Dying Earth, and even that magic system is different). So in order for 4e to bring classes closer in parity without mandating a specific magic item allowance (and even that doesn't really bring full parity), fighters have to be beefed up a bit at high levels. Given that high-level warriors in Western culture could be immune to damage (Achilles), swim the sea for nine days (Beowulf), or throw fatal spears at giants with their toes (Cuchulainn), being able to deflect a swarm of arrows, jump 10 feet in the air, or knock a legion's worth of ordinary soldiers around like tenpins doesn't really seem like a stretch for me.

EDIT: As a disclaimer: I currently play (and will probably continue to play) Iron Heroes, simply because it offers me the greatest ability to duplicate "classic" vanilla high fantasy and S&S of any system out there (except possibly Conan, but I don't like the Conan ruleset, classes, etc.). IH confers no obviously magical abilities, but certainly does give fighters the ability to perform some amazing feats at high level.

Most Bo9S maneuvers seem comfortably in line with the IH feats, and I'd like to see such abilities available to D&D fighters in 4e. If you don't want flight, dimensional travel, or setting one's sword aflame as martial abilities, I'd say that's reasonable. But it's also easy to recast those abilities in a slightly less "F/X-ish" fashion. Perhaps a warrior knows a special secret for treating his blade with alchemist's fire; or can simply hurtle himself through the air for dozens of yards (think the Beowulf movie). Perhaps he's so acrobatic, subtle, and stealthy that he can travel ten paces with all observers not even realized he moved. I recontextualize Bo9S abilities like this all the time in my current game, and it seems to work.

 

[Mercule]

The other possibility is that maybe "people" don't want anime- or wuxia-flavored D&D, but are looking to certain abilities featured in anime or wuxia films as exemplars of what a high-level warrior should be able to do.

The way in which those two differ are pretty minor.

I'm all for a way to balance martial and arcane characters. I don't see that being able to ignite your sword, leap 100', or the like are required.

On the other hand, I'm fine with punches that crack stone, vaulting over human-sized opponents, dodging arrows (maybe not volleys, though), enduring a cider block to the face, and snapping chains. Those aren't real-world, but they have a somewhat different feel than some wuxia moves.

Something that occurred to me, in a somewhat humorous way is the old "turn it to 11" bit. I want fighters to just "turn it to 11" (and 12, 13, 19, etc.). The same stuff, just bigger. I want wizards to use pyrotechnics. I don't want my fighters using pyrotechnics (at least not of their own design), and I don't want my wizards just turning up the volume.

That isn't to say that I'm against fighter/mages. I'm just against some types of magic being passed off as martial skill.

 

[AllisterH]

The way in which those two differ are pretty minor.

I'm all for a way to balance martial and arcane characters. I don't see that being able to ignite your sword, leap 100', or the like are required.

On the other hand, I'm fine with punches that crack stone, vaulting over human-sized opponents, dodging arrows (maybe not volleys, though), enduring a cider block to the face, and snapping chains. Those aren't real-world, but they have a somewhat different feel than some wuxia moves.

.

However, as the other poster mentioned, this certainly isn't equivalent to what mid to high level D&D magic offers.

Yeah, being able to jump over human sized opponents sounds cool at 20th level, but the mu has been flying all the time since 10th level. Being able to dodge/catch a couple of arrows at 20th level is really NOT balanced in any form with being able to stop time.

This is one of the reasons why the EPIC rules for 3.x are held in such disdain

Reason why wuxia/anime is better for influence is that ironically, a wuxia warrior like HERO is better suited for high-level D&D. Seriously, when people say I want "Sword & Sorcery" a la Conan/Fahrd & Grey Mouser they always ignore that said stories don't have magic in the hands of the protoganist to a great extent. Certainly not even close to the level of a 10th level D&D cleric to say nothing of a 20th level wizard.

Fortunately, it looks like 4E is going to ratchet down the power of spellcasting (which of course, has caused another set of fans to cry foul)

 

[Zurai]

I'm fine with ... dodging arrows (maybe not volleys, though). Those aren't real-world, but they have a somewhat different feel than some wuxia moves.

Something that occurred to me, in a somewhat humorous way is the old "turn it to 11" bit. I want fighters to just "turn it to 11" (and 12, 13, 19, etc.).

So how is dodging 10 arrows not "turning it to 11" from dodging 1 arrow? Furthering that, how is dodging 100 arrows not "turning it to 11" from dodging 10? And so on.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The way in which those two differ are pretty minor.

I'm all for a way to balance martial and arcane characters. I don't see that being able to ignite your sword, leap 100', or the like are required.

No one in Hero or Yimou's other movies does those things. The craziest it gets is running on water, and that's an ability that can be kept or ditched on a pure flavor basis. As Zurai said, though, you really think there's an appreciable F/X difference between sweeping dozens of arrows out of the air vs knocking away a few? Or blocking hundreds of arrows with a 3'x2' piece of wood?

I think that punching cracks in solid stone is just as obvious-F/X as sweeping arrows out of the air with one's bare hands; it's a question of what specific F/X you prefer, and that is, of course, an issue for individual DMs. One of the interesting gedankenexperiments that Bo9S provides is working through balance when/if you decide to ditch certain schools. For instance, if you throw out Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, you've basically eliminated 99% of the obvious-F/X maneuvers. Have you maintained the same power level? If so, I'd say you're there; you've got martial abilities without sacrificing power.

 

[mxyzplk]

My gaming group pretty much all has Book of Nine Swords and likes it. Some of the folks there get everything no matter what, but others are more selective. Sure, you always buy a PHB/DMG first, then the class books, and then Bo9S, but it's way more popular in our group than any of the other variant stuff - the races books, the incarnum stuff, dragon magic, etc. Except for the Magic Item Compendium; everyone needs that to pimp their character out.

 

[Henry]

No one in Hero or Yimou's other movies does those things. The craziest it gets is running on water, and that's an ability that can be kept or ditched on a pure flavor basis. As Zurai said, though, you really think there's an appreciable F/X difference between sweeping dozens of arrows out of the air vs knocking away a few? Or blocking hundreds of arrows with a 3'x2' piece of wood?

There's a pretty big difference to me; largely it's in the pop western style literature and movies up until the 1990's, true, but it's still a difference of scale; even after one or two, credibility starts to be strained, and after a jump of 10 feet straight up or 20 feet standing leap ahead, that starts to get into superheroic territory. Basically, If I can see captain america doing it, it's in the zone; if I can see the incredible hulk doing it, or the flash, then it's outside that zone.

I think that punching cracks in solid stone is just as obvious-F/X as sweeping arrows out of the air with one's bare hands; it's a question of what specific F/X you prefer, and that is, of course, an issue for individual DMs. One of the interesting gedankenexperiments that Bo9S provides is working through balance when/if you decide to ditch certain schools. For instance, if you throw out Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, you've basically eliminated 99% of the obvious-F/X maneuvers. Have you maintained the same power level? If so, I'd say you're there; you've got martial abilities without sacrificing power.

And this is true; I've made that argument in the past myself. But again, the qualifications on what's magic and what's not could definitely use work in that book. I don't want to see the crusader deliver blasts of divine power or teleporting around where the cleric or wizard couldn't.

 

[Zurai]

Crusaders can't teleport.

 

[Henry]

Crusaders can't teleport.

Mine can, thanks to this wonderful little feat called martial study.

(And yes, other PCs could also take martial study, but it's beside the point of maneuvers themselves no being categorized properly.)

 

[Zurai]

Oh, and the teleportation maneuvers are Supernatural, so not usable in an antimagic field, etc.