The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Henry]

Oh, and the teleportation maneuvers are Supernatural, so not usable in an antimagic field, etc.

Does it say that? I thought it said that unless specified, all maneuvers are extraordinary, and there are no notes under the maneuver itself. It does say (teleportation), but I don't see ny notes that it's supernatural in the maneuver overview section.

 

[Zurai]

They have the [teleportation] subtype, which means anything that blocks teleportation blocks them. You're right, though; they don't have the "This maneuver is a supernatural ability" tag that every other Shadow Hand maneuver has.

 

[Henry]

They have the [teleportation] subtype, which means anything that blocks teleportation blocks them. You're right, though; they don't have the "This maneuver is a supernatural ability" tag that every other Shadow Hand maneuver has.

Which means that this is an extraordinary ability that uses access to the astral plane. Kinda funky, huh?

 

[AllisterH]

Which means that this is an extraordinary ability that uses access to the astral plane. Kinda funky, huh?

Actually, I don't think they should use the Astral Plane.

Look at the Shadowhand teleport manoeuvers (specifically, Shadow Jaunt) and you'll notice that they are blocked by BOTH line of effect AND line of sight.

That does NOT strike me as a teleport affect.

I can see where it isn't listed as supernatural since it doesn't actually seem supernatural.

 

[TwinBahamut]

There's a pretty big difference to me; largely it's in the pop western style literature and movies up until the 1990's, true, but it's still a difference of scale; even after one or two, credibility starts to be strained, and after a jump of 10 feet straight up or 20 feet standing leap ahead, that starts to get into superheroic territory. Basically, If I can see captain america doing it, it's in the zone; if I can see the incredible hulk doing it, or the flash, then it's outside that zone.

This is something of a disconnect, really. For many people, so long as it still resembles normal physical abilities, and is pretty much just an enhancement or extension of what is normally possible, it is not "magic", it is "martial".

I would argue that, no matter how imaginative they are, the characters from Hero or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, are just mundane fighters. For me, at least, there is a tremendous difference between "superhuman" and "magical". Just because a mythical character does something impossible for a real person to do does not mean magic is involved. Hanuman's jump from Sri Lanka to the Himalayas in the Ramayana, and his return back carrying a mountain on his back, is not the product of magic; it is a product of raw physical power. Hanuman was a fighter, a martial character, and his astounding leap was not the product of magical spells or enchantments.

Fundamentally, the idea that anything beyond the bounds of the real world is the product of a wizard's spells or equivalent is a D&Dism that you can't possibly apply to real myth, legend, or even popular culture. The divide between Extraordinary and Supernatural is problematic and artificial even in D&D itself (and is a product of the single idea of "anti-magic", which is just a byproduct of that annoying D&Dism). As a whole, D&D would benefit a lot by just removing anti-magic and the entire distinction between extraordinary and supernatural entirely. In fact, I think that is happening in 4E.

Anyways, I like having fighters with abilities that can't possibly be recreated in real life. D&D is a game about legend and fantasy, and limiting the abilities of a character to what is possible in the real world is antithetical to the very genre of fantasy.

 

[KarinsDad]

How does he get a feat at 7th level?

9th level for Wilder, 10th level for Psion (who does get a bonus feat then).

It's a nice combo, but it's not going to win wars -- the Close range is a significant limit. Anything that you want to plink to death will take not very many rounds to move outside of Close range, if there's no cover available, and then you'll have to un-levitate if you want to follow.

Cheers, -- N

Yeah, I messed up the 7th level thing. He could actually get it at level 6 (Wilder 4/Fighter 2) where it is a minimum of 5D6 versus the Warlock's 3D6, but that costs quite a few PP (and 2 powers) lost.

And, it is not plinking opponents to death. It's blasting for cheap. If he concentrates on the opponents that are already seriously damaged, he can more or less take out an opponent most rounds. Whittling down the opposition.

Even taking it at 9th level, a human Wilder can get the lesser version at level 1. 4D6 at level one (surging it is a given) is pretty nice. Sure, he can only do it 3 or 4 times a day and not too often in the same combat, but still, that's double what a Wilder not taking those two feats can do.

How many first level opponents can withstand an average of 14 points of damage? Granted at first level, it does not always hit. But when it does, it can easily take out most BBEGs at that level. Until he gets Psionic Meditation, he uses it for blasting only (i.e. at full power with full surge) except for rare cases when he knows an opponent is seriously damaged and likely to fall if hit. Then it becomes a PP saver.

 

[KarinsDad]

You consider 10 foot leaps to be "magical powers"? You have quite a different opinion of what's magical than I do. The current standing long jump record is over 11 and a half feet. Am I missing something, or does your definition of "magical abilities unsuited for low level martial characters" include feats that have been surpassed by real world athletes?

I'm talking standing jump, 10 feet straight up, not long jump. "10 foot wall, no problem, I jump onto it." Something that is a DC 80 Jump check in 3E (DC 40 with 20 feet running start) .

 

[Simon Marks]

I can't make a 10' long jump - therefore me making a 10' jump ever is a magical ability?

No-one can make 10' high jump - therefore anyone making a 10' jump straight up is a magical ability?

It's not an issue of scale, but of level.

Should a 10th level Fighter be able to do stuff that is impossible for anyone who ever lived to do? How about 20th level? Or 30th level?

I'm guessing that Herioc tier characters are fully human. So end you games there.
But if a 10th level Fighter has reached the limit of human potential - then what do you get for the next twenty levels?

Nothing?

 

[KarinsDad]

This is something of a disconnect, really. For many people, so long as it still resembles normal physical abilities, and is pretty much just an enhancement or extension of what is normally possible, it is not "magic", it is "martial".

I would argue that, no matter how imaginative they are, the characters from Hero or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, are just mundane fighters. For me, at least, there is a tremendous difference between "superhuman" and "magical". Just because a mythical character does something impossible for a real person to do does not mean magic is involved. Hanuman's jump from Sri Lanka to the Himalayas in the Ramayana, and his return back carrying a mountain on his back, is not the product of magic; it is a product of raw physical power.

Superhuman does have to be considered supernatural in the literal sense of the word (i.e. beyond natural). Nothing wrong with DND martial types doing supernatural abilities (using that definition, not the DND one of supernatural as magic) as long as they do not do them at low levels. As long as they gradually gain these "beyond normal" abilities, it's ok.

The problem comes in (for some of us) when they gain abilities which are not extensions of normal abilties.

The ability to instantantly heal. The ability to teleport. The ability to fly. The ability to have fire spring from a sword.

These are magical abilities. They are not enhancements of normal abilities and do not belong in the list of martial powers.

My concern is that these types of magical martial powers will be in the list of martial powers. Just look at Hide in Plain Sight in 3E. Effectively going Invisible is not an enhancement of Hiding. The Hiding skill itself should be boosted, the rules of Hiding should not be changed. IMO.

That's where 4E might have issues. The designers might not merely enhance abilities, they might change the rules for these powers (e.g. similar to Diverting Defense where you can accidently hit your ally 10 or more feet away, even though you cannot reach him at that range, it breaks the normal rules to allow the feat to work).

 

[KarinsDad]

I can't make a 10' long jump - therefore me making a 10' jump ever is a magical ability?

No-one can make 10' high jump - therefore anyone making a 10' jump straight up is a magical ability?

Are you saying that it is a natural ability?

It's not an issue of scale, but of level.

Should a 10th level Fighter be able to do stuff that is impossible for anyone who ever lived to do? How about 20th level? Or 30th level?

I'm guessing that Herioc tier characters are fully human. So end you games there.
But if a 10th level Fighter has reached the limit of human potential - then what do you get for the next twenty levels?

Nothing?

Low level Martial Powers should not include 10' high standing jumps straight up. IMO. It might be ok to do it at 20th level depending on where the balance of other abilities are at that level. But, the game system has to indicate that superhuman natural abilities start appearing at level X so that DMs are prepared.