The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

KarinsDad said:
Actually, there is a difference.

Well sure. They're the two separate sides of the same argument. They're different but the same... (oooooh I got all zen like...)

Some of us might actually want to have the new game mechanics ideas which speed up the game without the new game change fighters into WoW/Wuxia superheroes ideas. Not saying that WotC is doing this, but that does appear to be the trend.

When did I say change them in to wuxia superheroes?

My comment was simply that you can use the same basic argument structure to argue the other side.

The majority of people who play DND have Fighter types with few "superpowers" and magical abilities unless they multiclass.

Maybe because it's never been offered before?

Making it the status quo changes it from DND to something else. Sure, have it as an option for those who like that stuff, but not as core.

Making it the status quo and offering those elements are two separate things. My guess is power selection will be similar to Bo9S selection. You can take whichever ones best fit the character image you wish to play, ignore the ones you don't.

Put it in the core so that people who like that style of play have those options from the get go, and won't be turned off by the fact that D&D isn't a game for them.

I've never been a fan of the monk. I felt it was a weird out of place class. Do I think that it should have been done away with? No. It's easy enough to ignore it, yet allows others who might like it the ability to use it.

D&D needs to find ways to attract new players who might otherwise be tempted to play other games that include the elements they're looking for. Not trying its best to create an exclusive club of people who like a certain style of fantasy.

Btw, many of the new game mechanics ideas are great from what I have heard. Getting rid of Prestige Classes. Great. I hated them from day one. Giving each PC a new ability at every level. Great.

Cool?

I just do not want to play DND Four Color Superheroes and that is what giving martial PCs magical sounding powers leans towards.

Sorry you feel that way? To me it offers up more character options.

One of my favorite movies is Brotherhood of The Wolf... It made absolutely no historical sense that this native american guy was a crazy martial artist... It was still fun to watch.

That really is not DND.

In your opinion.
 

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The sense I get is that characters with the Martial power source will follow a "human, but better" theme. They may be able to leap 50 or even 100 feet, but they won't be able to fly. They may be able to crack stone with their fists, but they won't be able to change it into Jell-O. Et cetera. So while you may see paladins (Divine power source) healing people with their strikes, you won't see fighters (Martial source) igniting their swords.

It's worth noting that in the Bo9S, the fighter-analogue class has access to none of the "supernatural" maneuvers; its disciplines are Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven, all of which fall squarely in the "human, but better" category. (Sure, you can pick up other maneuvers with Martial Study, but that's equivalent to multiclassing.) The supernatural stuff belongs to the paladin-analogue and the monk-analogue, both of which have perfectly valid reasons for having it.
 
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Cadfan said:
For me to make a standing high jump of 10' in D&D, I would need to beat a jump DC of 80.

With a running start, it would be a jump DC of 40. There are feats that let you count as if running, so we'll use this DC.

That's doable without magic, IF you invest as follows (and assuming you consider magical strength enhancement to be magical assistance in jumping):

12 ranks in Jump
+2 bonus from tumble synergy
+4 from Run feat
+10 from Leaping Dragon Stance, from Tome of Battle
+2 from Blade Meditation: Tiger Claw, from Tome of Battle
+5 strength bonus
+2 from acrobatic feat
+3 from skill focus: jump

Can somebody get that at a lower level than 9?

If you take out the ridiculously suboptimal feat selections (acrobatic? skill focus jump? this character spent 4 feats on jumping), chances are no one is accomplishing this below level 15 in regular D&D, EVEN IF they use the MOST "wuxia" like character options from the most wuxia like book.

Does anyone have any reason to think this is changing? Or is this the same hysteria that attached itself to Tome of Battle?

Here's my problem with limiting martial characters to say, the Captain America level.

At level 9, a wizard casts the spell jump (which lasts for 9 minutes at this time) and gains a +30 enhancement bonus to their jump check. At level 9, a wizard could make 2 scrolls of every 1st and 2nd level spell and still have enough money left over for most of the essentials (this is also another example of people ignoring the main problem, the power of magic in that the Xmas tree effect is pretty much a non-issue for casters. Strip a 20th level caster of his magic items and you don't affect him in the slightest. His stamina goes down but actual capability? No change)

This is where I disagree with both Karinsdad and Henry. Its nice and well to want martial characters to be equivalent to Captain America but the only reason Captain America works in the Avengers with people like Thor and Dr. Strange is that the writers "dumb-down" the other characters to make Captain America seem useful.

Hell, there was once a comic book story where Thor even admits that he holds back when he's around mere mortals but high level D&D magic users have better than average odds beating characters like Thor and Superman into the ground and players aren't going to nerf themselves when playing a class.
 

AllisterH said:
Here's my problem with limiting martial characters to say, the Captain America level.

At level 9, a wizard casts the spell jump (which lasts for 9 minutes at this time) and gains a +30 enhancement bonus to their jump check.
Wins the thread. In 3E, a first-level spell is equivalent to a ton of skill points, feats, and class abilities for a non-magic character, and that's OK, because it's MAAAAGIIIIC (said in a Doug Henning voice). I think the concept of the 'martial' power source as something equal in power to the 'arcane' and the 'divine' is a great idea, and I'm looking forward to it quite a bit. If one guy can bend the rules of reality with his mind, and another with his heart, I don't see why a third can't do it with his muscles.
 

Dausuul said:
It's worth noting that in the Bo9S, the fighter-analogue class has access to none of the "supernatural" maneuvers; its disciplines are Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven, all of which fall squarely in the "human, but better" category. (Sure, you can pick up other maneuvers with Martial Study, but that's equivalent to multiclassing.) The supernatural stuff belongs to the paladin-analogue and the monk-analogue, both of which have perfectly valid reasons for having it.

D'oh! *Head Smack*

I just realized that this is probably roughly how the "Class Training" feats in 4e work.

Sorry for the derail, but it never occurred to me until now. I suspect that Martial Study might even have been there partially to test that mechanic.
 

KarinsDad said:
Yeah, I messed up the 7th level thing. He could actually get it at level 6 (Wilder 4/Fighter 2) where it is a minimum of 5D6 versus the Warlock's 3D6, but that costs quite a few PP (and 2 powers) lost.
Fighters don't get [Psionic] bonus feats. How is he getting both Psionic Meditation and Greater Psionic Shot at 6th level?

KarinsDad said:
And, it is not plinking opponents to death. It's blasting for cheap. If he concentrates on the opponents that are already seriously damaged, he can more or less take out an opponent most rounds. Whittling down the opposition.
At 9th level, 5d6 damage with a Close ray isn't all that. Not for the price of four feats.

(And of course [Reserve] feats do the same thing, but cheaper, better, and without draining any resources.)

KarinsDad said:
Even taking it at 9th level, a human Wilder can get the lesser version at level 1. 4D6 at level one (surging it is a given) is pretty nice. Sure, he can only do it 3 or 4 times a day and not too often in the same combat, but still, that's double what a Wilder not taking those two feats can do.
Sure. Wilders are like that. I don't encourage them in my games... but that's a totally different argument than your original "free 5d6 all day" argument. It's more like the whole reason for Wilders to exist.

Cheers, -- N
 

Is 'more-than-human' ok if it's not available until after 10th level? Even for fighters?

See, this is how I see it;

Heroic Tier Fighter
Above Average -> Human limit (Batman)

Paragon Tier Fighter
Human Limit -> 'Low-power' superhero

Epic Tier Fighter
Mythic Warrior -> Near Godlike.

Heroic tier are 'fully human', but above 10th characters are no longer representative of 'human potential'

Don't like it? Don't run past 10th.

I'm fine with it.
 

Nifft said:
Fighters don't get [Psionic] bonus feats. How is he getting both Psionic Meditation and Greater Psionic Shot at 6th level?

Killjoy. You ruin all my fun and force me to look stuff up instead of making stuff up. :mad:

Nifft said:
At 9th level, 5d6 damage with a Close ray isn't all that. Not for the price of four feats.

5D6?

The 5D6 isn't that much. But 8D6 (range 45) with a Surge for a single Power Point is pretty nice at 9th level. That's 50%+ of most opponent's hit points for 1 PP. If it is a tough opponent, he can boost this to 16D6 (range 85 for 9 PP and typically a save versus massive damage) which will take out most opponents in a single shot. Even if a BBEG survives such an attack (and a spell casting BBEG probably will not), do you really think he wants to stick around for a second dose?

At this same 9th level, the Warlock is doing 5D6 plus an Eldritch Blast. Nice, but not overwhelming. The Essences have saving throws, so they may or may not do anything more than the 5D6. The 5D6 has Spell Resistance, so it may or may not do anything at all. A tough opponent would probably laugh at such an attack.

The main defense to the 8D6 is a miss chance. Otherwise, at 9th level it is a near automatic hit (in a different thread last year, we figured out the touch AC of most creatures and it averages 11 and rarely gets above 14). No spell resistance. No save. And when it is done on multiple rounds, some latter rounds get +1 more to hit and damage. The only opponent with a decent defense against this is a Monk.

Compare that to a 9th level archer who gets three attacks per round with Rapid Shot, but for less damage and less chance to hit and DR.

Human 9th Wilder Feats: (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Postpone Enervation, Psionic Meditation, Greater Psionic Shot). The advantage over the Warlock is that the Wilder is doing more damage per combat at the lower levels (hence, has a better chance to survive).

Sure, a different 9th level Wilder could surge a 10D6+10 Empowered Energy Bolt against multiple targets for a single feat. This Wilder (as built) would have to wait until 12th level to do such an Empower and could only do a 12D6+12 Energy Bolt at level 9. At higher levels, Empower does do more damage. But, at lower levels, Psionic Shot allows the Wilder to survive easier.


Such a PC would give most DMs fits as their carefully crafted adventures end up with 3 round combats instead of 5 round ones due to the Wilder blowing away most opponents that the other PCs injure. It can really save party resources by picking opponents off quicker. 4D6 at levels 1 and 2, 5D6 at levels 3-6, 6D6 at levels 7 and 8. For one PP a shot. It becomes real nice at level 12 if he uses a feat to acquire Schism and can injure opponents with his standard action and pick one of them off with a 1 PP shot with a swift action most rounds.

I do not necessarily consider this broken, but I do consider it problematic for DMs. At low levels when most players are rolling one die of damage for most attacks, the player of this PC is rolling 4+. If the DM increases the difficulty of encounters to account for this one PC, then a series of bad rolls can quickly lead to a TPK.


Note: Sure the Wilder will not make the Concentration roll to regain the ability every round with Psionic Meditation. With a 14 CON, he'll be successful 55% of the time at level 6. This just means that it is not an every round action. More like one round in three at level 6 (he will not always be just doing this, he'll still need move actions for other things) and one in two at level 9. Some rounds, he will do less damage with his Surged Crystal because it cannot use the Psionic Shot with it. He just has to be smart and pick the most damaged opponent to finish off those rounds.

The real aspect of psionic PCs is that they can Nova, but they burn out their PP quickly if they do so. The advantage of this type of build is that the guy rarely uses a lot of PP (while still doing a lot of damage), so he has plenty of PP to spare when it IS time to Nova.
 
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Simon Marks said:
Heroic Tier Fighter
Above Average -> Human limit (Batman)

Paragon Tier Fighter
Human Limit -> 'Low-power' superhero

Epic Tier Fighter
Mythic Warrior -> Near Godlike.

Heroic tier are 'fully human', but above 10th characters are no longer representative of 'human potential'

Don't like it? Don't run past 10th.

I'm fine with it.

So am I. Your model appears fine. My concern is with low level.
 

KarinsDad said:
So am I. Your model appears fine. My concern is with low level.

and I have to ask what is causing this concern? You mentioned self-healing, teleportation and flaming blades in another post. Are these the things that you think martial classes can or should not be able to do at low level or at all? If so then I really don't see a problem.
The latter two are only available to the swordsage and the book specially calls them "blade wizards who use knowledge of the sublime way to unlock abilities that are overtly supernatural or magical in nature." So the class that is trying to be the mystic wuxia magic guy succeeds at being the mystic wuxia guy. The monk done right if you will.

On self-healing, I am glad that healing is no longer tied solely to positive energy. From John McClaine to Conan, allowing fighters to reach down and tap an inner source to get back up to kick arse is a good thing.
 

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