The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Arkhandus]

But then, OD&D had a lower level cap than the later D&D books, y'know. So sure, it's original incarnation was strictly low-level low-fantasy fare. But then it grew.

That doesn't mean that the other 10-20 levels or so that were added later need to stick with that low-fantasy, Conanesque degree of martial ability.

(quick edit: especially since the magic-users quickly grew beyond the pulp fantasy level of power as well, and yet the fighting men lagged behind and stayed just as limited in strength as they had been in the first place, just scaling upward a little bit)

 

[KarinsDad]

Very few things at CR9 and above have less than 80-100 hit points. 8d6 only averages to 28 damage. 16d6 averages to 56. Even a level 9 wizard (which is hardly a BBEG to a level 9 party) with 14 con will have 42 hit points on average.

What you say is true. But, somewhat besides the point nonetheless.

Say you have a BBEG with 152 hit points against 9th level PCs (say, a young adult Black Dragon). There are 4 PCs. Most of them will ignore the mooks (if they exist) and attack the BBEG if possible. So, the Wilder does 56 points of damage. The BBEG is now 37% damaged and only one PC has attacked it so far. There are still 3 other PCs, itching to take him down.

Say after round one, the BBEG is down 70%. 1 PC did 37%, 3 PCs did an average of 11% each (17 points each, not outside the realm of average 9th level damage in a round). In round two, the Wilder will kill it if he does the same attack. Knowing how much damage the Wilder did, the BBEG might attack him fighting to his last breath. Or, the BBEG might run away.

The point is that the BBEG might not last two rounds with such a PC in the group. It becomes worse for the CR9+ creatures you mentioned with only 80 - 100 hit points.

I didn't say that 16D6 was going to kill any given NPC opponent at level 9. I said that it is enough damage to take out most opponents. Not necessarily kill them outright, but either kill them with same round help from fellow PCs or force them to flee (assuming your DM does not play all monsters as fighting to the death).

Even the 8D6 at level 9 as a constant cheap go to the well power is nothing to sneeze at.


Note: The 9th level PC Sorcerer with his Big Gun Empowered Scorching Ray only does 42 points of damage. The 9th level PC Wilder can do a 16D6+12 (i.e. 12D6+12 + 4D6) Energy Ray for 68 points instead of the 16D6 Crystal Shard if he thinks the opponent does not have Spell Resistance and do more than 50% more damage than an Empowered Ray by the Sorcerer.

 

[JohnSnow]

(Bunch of stuff about psionics)

Not to be pedantic, but what does all this have to do with how popular The Book of Nine Swords is?

Or is this thread totally played out?

 

[Mistwell]

So, has anyone been able to offer any real evidence that Bo9S's popularity was a myth?

 

[AllisterH]

That's one I've always differed with, because D&D was originally not developed with hercules et. al. in mind so much as Conan, Elric, and his generation (the pulp fantasy heroes and villains). It's cool too, but that all D&D PCs should be superhuman at the very least is one I disagree with for reasons of play style.

I'm curious about something that Henry mentions and this is directed at everyone in this thread.

What was the cultural influence/ideal/hero that (A)D&D magic-users is based on? Sure, we know the system comes from Vance, but what type of hero was Gygax et al trying to emulate when they decided on the feel of what a wizard/cleric should be?

 

[Nifft]

Killjoy. You ruin all my fun and force me to look stuff up instead of making stuff up.

Yeah yeah, if you didn't like it you wouldn't keep bringing up Psionics. Face it, you're a psychomasochist.

5D6?

The 5D6 isn't that much. But 8D6 (range 45) with a Surge for a single Power Point is pretty nice at 9th level. That's 50%+ of most opponent's hit points for 1 PP. If it is a tough opponent, he can boost this to 16D6 (range 85 for 9 PP and typically a save versus massive damage) which will take out most opponents in a single shot. Even if a BBEG survives such an attack (and a spell casting BBEG probably will not), do you really think he wants to stick around for a second dose?

It's interesting that you bring up "second round" and yet ignore the fact that the Wilder acting as you describe only has an 85% chance of participating. The real cost of that 8d6 is: 1 pp + (9 pp * 0.15) + (1 round * 0.15). How much is your next round's action worth? An extra action via temporal acceleration costs 11 power points; let's call it 11 pp until someone comes up with something better, and IMHO 11 pp is quite low, since actions have been called the most precious commodity in D&D.

That 8d6 cost you: 4 feats + your Move action + 1 pp + 15% enervation.
(0.15 * 9 pp = 1.35 pp)

So the cost is AT LEAST 2.35 pp + 15% of your next round, with this latter bit being hard to price.

Even for a Wilder, I find Greater Psionic Shot far more tempting without using a Wild Surge. I'd only be taking those four feats to conserve PP, and blowing an extra nine of them would not be in my plan.

This is also why I prefer comparing Psions vs. arcanists rather than throwing Wilders in. See, once you allow the meta-cap to be broken, I have to bring up Rods of Metamagic... and then it's game over for Psionics.

The only opponent with a decent defense against this is a Monk.

Actually, look at the Wilder's Elude Touch special ability. Goose, gander, good, etc.

Compare that to a 9th level archer who gets three attacks per round with Rapid Shot, but for less damage and less chance to hit and DR.

At 9th level, every archer should be under the effect of haste in a big fight. (But I'm not sure why you bring up archers -- the Rangers in my game have always been able to keep up in terms of damage, and I've seen builds for Cleric Archers which are terribly strong.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Clavis]

I'm curious about something that Henry mentions and this is directed at everyone in this thread.

What was the cultural influence/ideal/hero that (A)D&D magic-users is based on? Sure, we know the system comes from Vance, but what type of hero was Gygax et al trying to emulate when they decided on the feel of what a wizard/cleric should be?

Gary himself would be the best one to answer this. IMHO, however, it seems that the AD&D Magic User was pretty clearly modeled on Vance's wizards, and not just mechanically. The AD&D Magic User is a perfect fit for Vance's feuding, petty, pretentious wizards. Read the Dying Earth stories and you'll see what I mean.

As for Clerics, they seem to have been inspired by the various legends of fighting Bishops and Popes from the Middle Ages. It's may be hard for modern Christians to understand, but the Medieval Church was a political institution, and Bishops were often noble landowners with feudal obligations to fight and provide soldiers for their sovereigns. The Pope was King of central Italy, and could lead troops into battle. The various medieval orders of fighting monks (such as the Templars) seem also to have been an inspiration for the AD&D Cleric class.

Remember, the Cleric class was originally meant to represent fighting and adventuring clergy, NOT necessarily a description of the average village priest.

 

[Wormwood]

What was the cultural influence/ideal/hero that (A)D&D magic-users is based on?

Originally? I'd say the cannon, the mortar and the gas canister.

 

[Mallus]

So, has anyone been able to offer any real evidence that Bo9S's popularity was a myth?

No, not yet.

 

[Mallus]

Originally? I'd say the cannon, the mortar and the gas canister.

Exactly. Gary was tapping into the mythic resonance of old-fashioned field artillery (not that there's anything wrong with that).