Originally posted by Endarire:
Intro
Sorcerers are unfortunately gimped compared to wizards. What if you could cast spells before that damn one-upping wizard?
Also, despite the name, necropolitan is merely optional. It's probably suboptimal, especially if you need to play through the first 8 or so levels.
The NeKobolitan
-Start as a Earth Kobold. (Your total stat mods are now -2 STR, -2 CON.)
-Apply White Dragonspawn for 1 LA (Dragonlance Campaign Setting 222). You can now cast as a level 1 sorcerer. (-2 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Become of Venerable age. (-8 STR, -4 DEX, -6 CON, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Gain your first sorcerer level and take the feat Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon 100). (-2 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Immediately become a Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron 31) to gain 2 effective sorcerer levels. You are now 2 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve.
-Undergo the Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon 43) and lose 1 HP and a 100G gem. I recommend taking identify as your spell-like ability.
-RECOMMENDED: Buy off your White Dragonspawn level adjustment. Doing so puts you 3 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve after you regain your level.
-OPTIONAL: Obtain level 4 then become a Necropolitan (Libris Mortis 115). You will die, lose 2 levels, and be 1000XP away from level 3. You may regain the HP you lost from the rite. (-2 STR, +2 DEX, -- CON, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Obtain level 3 and take Draconic Resevoir.
-Obtain level 6 and undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You lose 3 HP and a 1000G gem but gain 1 effective sorcerer level, putting you 3 or 4 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve.
What if I use a Desert Kobold?
Your overall stats are -2 STR, -2 WIS compared to an Earth Kobold.
What if I can't be a Dragonspawn?
You're worse off, but seriously instead consider the Dragonborn template (Races of the Dragon 8). Be an Earth Kobold if you can.
What if I can't become a Necropolitan since my type is dragon?
Necropolitans can only work if your DM allows your humanoid-turned-monstrous humanoid-turned dragon to become undead; however, you're guaranteed to qualify for Dracolich (Draconomicon 148). I don't recommend it since the level adjustment of 4 is so severe and you must be evil.
Draconic Power
If your DM interprets the feat Draconic Power (Races of the Dragon 104) as favorably as I do, you gain an extra sorcerer level, stacking with your 3 or 4. If this is true, I advise taking a PrC prereq feat at level 6 and gaining Draconic Power at level 12. (Your campaign will probably be over by then so you may as well pack in all the power you can ASAP.)
The Visionary Seer (Planar Handbook 53) is a spiffy PrC to take at level 6, requiring only 8 Knowledge ranks. You should have Knowledge (arcana).
If you're going Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun 61), buy an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel 151) for 3000G to get Iron Will and take Extend Spell or a no prereq metamagic feat at level 6. Take Draconic Heritage at 9 and Draconic Power at 12. Assuming all other benefits, you are 4 or 5 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve.
For example, you could go Sorcerer5/Visionary Seer1/Incantatrix10/Fatespinner4/Mindbender1 (Complete Arcane 54) OR Unseen Seer1 (Complete Mage 82), not necessarily in this order.
Phaerimm: D&D's Anthropomorphic Leeches and Malboro Look-Alikes
Alternatively, play a Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun 188) sorcerer to simplify things. Your LA is 2, but each sorcerer or +1 sorcerer casting level counts double. At ECL11 assuming no LA buyoff, you can cast level 9 spells!Phaerimm Sorcery Explained
[sblock]Lost Empires of Faerun 189 states under Phaerimm Characters:
"A phaerimm's favored class is sorcerer. Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability (sorcerer levels or PrCs to increase sorcererous casting) for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
As a Phaerimm Sorcerer1, my ECL is 3, my caster level is 2, and I'm treated as a level 2 Sorcerer for spells known and spells per day. When I gain a level, I'm now a Sorcerer2. My ECL is 4, my caster level is 4, and I'm treated as a level 4 Sorcerer for spells known and per day. Continue this pattern and at Sorcerer9 or, preferably, Sorcerer5/Incantatrix4, I'm ECL11 assuming no LA buyoff AND I'm treated as a level 18 sorcerer for spells known and per day.
If I ever got this far, I'd probably stick around to finish Incantatrix, but I'd be tempted to multiclass into Warblade for Iron Heart Surge and more HP.[/sblock]
Originally posted by jenos:
How critical is the whitedragonsapwn template? If you don't use that, you're still 2-3 levels ahead of the curve without having to talk your DM into using an incredibly broken template, right?
Originally posted by Endarire:
White dragonspawn isn't crucial, but it's greatly helpful. I mostly recommend it for granting you nonmagical flight and a virtual sorcerer level.
Originally posted by emansdrawkcab:
Originally posted by emy:
I don't see how you're interpreting Draconic Power that way. "Caster Level" is a fairly well-defined term in D&D.
Also, why Dragonborn? I don't really see the Kobold racial traits as "icky".
Other than that, it just looks like tricks that have already been posted here. (Nice to see all in one place though.)
Originally posted by priere:
Originally posted by rasmus_wagner:
Originally posted by jaronk:
You can't apply White Dragonspawn after Dragonborn. The first is inhearited, the latter is acquired. So, drop Dragonborn.
JaronK
Originally posted by Senevri:
even if all else works, you need at least 17 (or 19!!, depending) STR, or you're permanently paralyzed.
Originally posted by halinn:
I would be a desert kobold and drop dragonborn. -4 str, +2 dex, -2 wis, no light vulnerability (not that that matters, that's a simple 10 gp item)
Being 1.5 spell levels ahead of the wizard is fun.
Originally posted by pithica:
Are those Stat mod's cumulative? I don't see how you're getting the +3 Int/Wis/Cha from aging 4 times.
Originally posted by Endarire:
Stat mods aren't cumulative and instead are mods compared to an adult human.
Originally posted by PlzBreakMyCampaign:
Wow, you are very, very wrong about the phaerim possible high level spells - But i Like the malboro comment
Originally posted by Endarire:
PlzBreakMyCampaign: Lost Empires of Faerun 189 states:
"A phaerimm's favored class is sorcerer. Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability (sorcerer levels or PrCs to increase sorcererous casting) for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
As a Phaerimm Sorcerer1, my ECL is 3, my caster level is 2, and I'm treated as a level 2 Sorcerer for spells known and spells per day. When I gain a level, I'm now a Sorcerer2. My ECL is 4, my caster level is 4, and I'm treated as a level 4 Sorcerer for spells known and per day. Continue this pattern and at Sorcerer9 or, preferably, Sorcerer5/Incantatrix4, I'm ECL11 assuming no LA buyoff AND I'm treated as a level 18 sorcerer for spells known and per day.
Originally posted by flamingkobold:
I don't have LM, so I asked one of my friends about necropolitan. From what he gave me, I don't see how it works in this build. Was my friend's explanation missing something?
Originally posted by Endarire:
Necropolitans can only work if your DM allows your humanoid-turned-monstrous humanoid-turned dragon to become undead; however, you're guaranteed to qualify for Dracolich (Draconomicon 148).
Originally posted by flamingkobold:
Im thinking about using this build for a game in a few days, if i can get it approved. Any parts that aren't crucial (I'll have to get each small part approved)?
Originally posted by PlzBreakMyCampaign:
Oh, I know what it says. But do you?
First of all there is no "(sorcerer levels or PrCs to increase sorcererous casting)":
"A phaerimm's .... sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
What is its base spellcasting ability? Look back in the text:
"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level)."
As an NPC character, the monster's character level is simply its HD, which EXACTLY matches Table 11-4. Coincidence? Of course not.
Considering it starts out with a caster level of 1 which is exactly what table 11-4 gives, the base spellcasting ability is that of a first level sorcerer. So when a phaerimm gains sorcerer levels it stacks that base spellcasting ability of 1 level of sorcerer with its sorcerer levels.
You should have said:
"As a Phaerimm Sorcerer1, my ECL is 3, my caster level is 2, and I'm treated as a level 2 Sorcerer for spells known and spells per day. When I gain a level, I'm now a Sorcerer2. My ECL is 1+2=3, my caster level is 1+2=3, and I'm treated as a level 1+2=3 Sorcerer for spells known and per day. Continue this pattern and at Sorcerer9 when I am treated as a 10th level sorcerer: 1+9=10
Originally posted by Endarire:
Flaming: The only reason kobolds are optimal as sorcerers is their ability to cast spells of levels before a wizard. Remove that and you're probably better off as a wizard.
Originally posted by tytalus:
Most of the stuff is old news:
Also, it isn't too clear on the rules:
Also, whether the Dragonborn template that you recommend actually makes sense here is debatable. The racial abilities of a dragonborn kobold are decent and don't make the template decision a no-brainer. Also note that you might loose your dragon type (RotD, p. 8 says so, RotD, p. 10 says otherwise), even if your are still considered to be a dragon.
Originally posted by Endarire:
I posted the original build before I fully understood Necropolitan's effects, but I posted this build since I saw no place that showed a breakdown of a kobold sorcerer with White Dragonspawn, Loredrake, and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.
Originally posted by Endarire:
LEoF 188 states this for Phaerimm:
"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level)."
A typical Phaerimm hatchling has no character levels and 1 racial HD. It could trade this HD for a Sorcerer level, thereby allowing it to cast as a Sorcerer2.
Based on its racial HD progression, I'm inclined to believe the terms "character level" from the aforementioned quote is the same as "hit dice."
Originally posted by tytalus:
Originally posted by Endarire:
Yeah.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
Ugh, this one again. Since I hate those weird combos
I feel obliged to point out that it's well-known that White Dragonspawn was updated in a later book (can't recall the name - another Dragonlance book), and the LA +1 version made you thrall to a dragon ; you needed a LA +3 version to have free will.
See here(x) for confirmation if you don't believe me (of course I would find a post by you, Balthanon
)
The true-dragonness of Dragonwrought Kobold (allowing them to become Loredrakes) is also under debate, but I do not wish to rekindle it.
Originally posted by Endarire:
Saved!
And thanks to Solo for mentioning this post in his guide!
Intro
Sorcerers are unfortunately gimped compared to wizards. What if you could cast spells before that damn one-upping wizard?
Also, despite the name, necropolitan is merely optional. It's probably suboptimal, especially if you need to play through the first 8 or so levels.
The NeKobolitan
-Start as a Earth Kobold. (Your total stat mods are now -2 STR, -2 CON.)
-Apply White Dragonspawn for 1 LA (Dragonlance Campaign Setting 222). You can now cast as a level 1 sorcerer. (-2 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Become of Venerable age. (-8 STR, -4 DEX, -6 CON, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Gain your first sorcerer level and take the feat Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon 100). (-2 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Immediately become a Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron 31) to gain 2 effective sorcerer levels. You are now 2 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve.
-Undergo the Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon 43) and lose 1 HP and a 100G gem. I recommend taking identify as your spell-like ability.
-RECOMMENDED: Buy off your White Dragonspawn level adjustment. Doing so puts you 3 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve after you regain your level.
-OPTIONAL: Obtain level 4 then become a Necropolitan (Libris Mortis 115). You will die, lose 2 levels, and be 1000XP away from level 3. You may regain the HP you lost from the rite. (-2 STR, +2 DEX, -- CON, +3 INT/WIS/CHA)
-Obtain level 3 and take Draconic Resevoir.
-Obtain level 6 and undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You lose 3 HP and a 1000G gem but gain 1 effective sorcerer level, putting you 3 or 4 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve.
What if I use a Desert Kobold?
Your overall stats are -2 STR, -2 WIS compared to an Earth Kobold.
What if I can't be a Dragonspawn?
You're worse off, but seriously instead consider the Dragonborn template (Races of the Dragon 8). Be an Earth Kobold if you can.
What if I can't become a Necropolitan since my type is dragon?
Necropolitans can only work if your DM allows your humanoid-turned-monstrous humanoid-turned dragon to become undead; however, you're guaranteed to qualify for Dracolich (Draconomicon 148). I don't recommend it since the level adjustment of 4 is so severe and you must be evil.
Draconic Power
If your DM interprets the feat Draconic Power (Races of the Dragon 104) as favorably as I do, you gain an extra sorcerer level, stacking with your 3 or 4. If this is true, I advise taking a PrC prereq feat at level 6 and gaining Draconic Power at level 12. (Your campaign will probably be over by then so you may as well pack in all the power you can ASAP.)
The Visionary Seer (Planar Handbook 53) is a spiffy PrC to take at level 6, requiring only 8 Knowledge ranks. You should have Knowledge (arcana).
If you're going Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun 61), buy an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel 151) for 3000G to get Iron Will and take Extend Spell or a no prereq metamagic feat at level 6. Take Draconic Heritage at 9 and Draconic Power at 12. Assuming all other benefits, you are 4 or 5 sorcerer levels ahead of the curve.
For example, you could go Sorcerer5/Visionary Seer1/Incantatrix10/Fatespinner4/Mindbender1 (Complete Arcane 54) OR Unseen Seer1 (Complete Mage 82), not necessarily in this order.
Phaerimm: D&D's Anthropomorphic Leeches and Malboro Look-Alikes
Alternatively, play a Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun 188) sorcerer to simplify things. Your LA is 2, but each sorcerer or +1 sorcerer casting level counts double. At ECL11 assuming no LA buyoff, you can cast level 9 spells!Phaerimm Sorcery Explained
[sblock]Lost Empires of Faerun 189 states under Phaerimm Characters:
"A phaerimm's favored class is sorcerer. Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability (sorcerer levels or PrCs to increase sorcererous casting) for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
As a Phaerimm Sorcerer1, my ECL is 3, my caster level is 2, and I'm treated as a level 2 Sorcerer for spells known and spells per day. When I gain a level, I'm now a Sorcerer2. My ECL is 4, my caster level is 4, and I'm treated as a level 4 Sorcerer for spells known and per day. Continue this pattern and at Sorcerer9 or, preferably, Sorcerer5/Incantatrix4, I'm ECL11 assuming no LA buyoff AND I'm treated as a level 18 sorcerer for spells known and per day.
If I ever got this far, I'd probably stick around to finish Incantatrix, but I'd be tempted to multiclass into Warblade for Iron Heart Surge and more HP.[/sblock]
Originally posted by jenos:
How critical is the whitedragonsapwn template? If you don't use that, you're still 2-3 levels ahead of the curve without having to talk your DM into using an incredibly broken template, right?
Originally posted by Endarire:
White dragonspawn isn't crucial, but it's greatly helpful. I mostly recommend it for granting you nonmagical flight and a virtual sorcerer level.
Originally posted by emansdrawkcab:
So wait. The part you're worried about getting past your DM is Dragonspawn? Is that the only part you read?
Originally posted by emy:
I don't see how you're interpreting Draconic Power that way. "Caster Level" is a fairly well-defined term in D&D.
Also, why Dragonborn? I don't really see the Kobold racial traits as "icky".
Other than that, it just looks like tricks that have already been posted here. (Nice to see all in one place though.)
Originally posted by priere:
Shouldn't be too hard to talk a DM into that. They can always take control of you if you get out of hand anyway.
Originally posted by rasmus_wagner:
... assuming you're sleeping with your GM. But since you already got away with Loredrake, it'll probably work.
Originally posted by jaronk:
You can't apply White Dragonspawn after Dragonborn. The first is inhearited, the latter is acquired. So, drop Dragonborn.
JaronK
Originally posted by Senevri:
even if all else works, you need at least 17 (or 19!!, depending) STR, or you're permanently paralyzed.
Originally posted by halinn:
Nah, when he becomes dragonwrought, he loses age penalties.
I would be a desert kobold and drop dragonborn. -4 str, +2 dex, -2 wis, no light vulnerability (not that that matters, that's a simple 10 gp item)
Being 1.5 spell levels ahead of the wizard is fun.
Originally posted by pithica:
Are those Stat mod's cumulative? I don't see how you're getting the +3 Int/Wis/Cha from aging 4 times.
Originally posted by Endarire:
Stat mods aren't cumulative and instead are mods compared to an adult human.
Originally posted by PlzBreakMyCampaign:
Wow, you are very, very wrong about the phaerim possible high level spells - But i Like the malboro comment
Originally posted by Endarire:
PlzBreakMyCampaign: Lost Empires of Faerun 189 states:
"A phaerimm's favored class is sorcerer. Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability (sorcerer levels or PrCs to increase sorcererous casting) for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
As a Phaerimm Sorcerer1, my ECL is 3, my caster level is 2, and I'm treated as a level 2 Sorcerer for spells known and spells per day. When I gain a level, I'm now a Sorcerer2. My ECL is 4, my caster level is 4, and I'm treated as a level 4 Sorcerer for spells known and per day. Continue this pattern and at Sorcerer9 or, preferably, Sorcerer5/Incantatrix4, I'm ECL11 assuming no LA buyoff AND I'm treated as a level 18 sorcerer for spells known and per day.
Originally posted by flamingkobold:
I don't have LM, so I asked one of my friends about necropolitan. From what he gave me, I don't see how it works in this build. Was my friend's explanation missing something?
Originally posted by Endarire:
Necropolitans can only work if your DM allows your humanoid-turned-monstrous humanoid-turned dragon to become undead; however, you're guaranteed to qualify for Dracolich (Draconomicon 148).
Originally posted by flamingkobold:
Im thinking about using this build for a game in a few days, if i can get it approved. Any parts that aren't crucial (I'll have to get each small part approved)?
Originally posted by PlzBreakMyCampaign:
Oh, I know what it says. But do you?
First of all there is no "(sorcerer levels or PrCs to increase sorcererous casting)":
"A phaerimm's .... sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
What is its base spellcasting ability? Look back in the text:
"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level)."
As an NPC character, the monster's character level is simply its HD, which EXACTLY matches Table 11-4. Coincidence? Of course not.
Considering it starts out with a caster level of 1 which is exactly what table 11-4 gives, the base spellcasting ability is that of a first level sorcerer. So when a phaerimm gains sorcerer levels it stacks that base spellcasting ability of 1 level of sorcerer with its sorcerer levels.
You should have said:
"As a Phaerimm Sorcerer1, my ECL is 3, my caster level is 2, and I'm treated as a level 2 Sorcerer for spells known and spells per day. When I gain a level, I'm now a Sorcerer2. My ECL is 1+2=3, my caster level is 1+2=3, and I'm treated as a level 1+2=3 Sorcerer for spells known and per day. Continue this pattern and at Sorcerer9 when I am treated as a 10th level sorcerer: 1+9=10
Originally posted by Endarire:
Flaming: The only reason kobolds are optimal as sorcerers is their ability to cast spells of levels before a wizard. Remove that and you're probably better off as a wizard.
Originally posted by tytalus:
So? What is actually new here?
Most of the stuff is old news:
- The fact hat Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage = 4 sorcerer levels ahead of a normal sorcerer is an old hat (an one with a strong smell of cheese, too - Loredrake obviously was never meant for PCs, and WDS was always known for being a severely overpowered template).
- That dragonwrought kobolds can be venerable without drawbacks is even older news (came out a few days after Races of the Dragon), and is the standard CO method to build a kobold character - in particular casters.
Also, it isn't too clear on the rules:
- Necropolitan clearly doesn't work per RAW and requires houseruling. Since it also incurs a type change, all dragon-dependent benefits will no longer apply, such as the Draconic Power feat and perhaps even the Loredrake benefit.
- Draconic Power does not provide an extra level of sorcerer spell progression as pointed out by Emy. The RAW is completely clear on what it does, and it's not that.
Also, whether the Dragonborn template that you recommend actually makes sense here is debatable. The racial abilities of a dragonborn kobold are decent and don't make the template decision a no-brainer. Also note that you might loose your dragon type (RotD, p. 8 says so, RotD, p. 10 says otherwise), even if your are still considered to be a dragon.
Originally posted by Endarire:
I posted the original build before I fully understood Necropolitan's effects, but I posted this build since I saw no place that showed a breakdown of a kobold sorcerer with White Dragonspawn, Loredrake, and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.
Originally posted by Endarire:
LEoF 188 states this for Phaerimm:
"Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level)."
A typical Phaerimm hatchling has no character levels and 1 racial HD. It could trade this HD for a Sorcerer level, thereby allowing it to cast as a Sorcerer2.
Based on its racial HD progression, I'm inclined to believe the terms "character level" from the aforementioned quote is the same as "hit dice."
Originally posted by tytalus:
Ah. There are several, though (as a quick search reveals):
- Here
- Here
- Here
- Here (nice build, by the way)
- Here (spread out over two posts)
- Here (see mentioning of missing ingredients later in the thread)
- Here (Greater Draconic Rite doesn't apply for this one)
- Etc.
Originally posted by Endarire:
Yeah.
Originally posted by Omen_of_Peace:
Ugh, this one again. Since I hate those weird combos
See here(x) for confirmation if you don't believe me (of course I would find a post by you, Balthanon
)The true-dragonness of Dragonwrought Kobold (allowing them to become Loredrakes) is also under debate, but I do not wish to rekindle it.
Originally posted by Endarire:
Saved!
And thanks to Solo for mentioning this post in his guide!
