The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Sledge]

BTW still awaiting confirmation as to double quickened spells and such.

Now I just need a few more things for my next epic game.
*highjack interrupted please see "Epic Stuff Wanted"*

 

[Cheiromancer]

BTW still awaiting confirmation as to double quickened spells and such.

Now I just need a few more things for my next epic game.
*highjack interrupted please see "Epic Stuff Wanted"*

Check out the feats on Upper Krust's website http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm

The one you want is

Metamagic Freedom [Epic]
You can stack the same metamagic feat multiple times.
Prerequisties: Four metamagic feats, Spellcraft 24 ranks.
Benefit: You can apply the same metamagic feat any number of times to the same spell, provided you have enough spell slots.

eg. With this feat you could use a 9th-level spell slot to triple empower a fireball spell (for +150% damage).

Normal: Without this feat you can only apply the same metamagic feat once to a single spell.

UK mentions that multispell becomes redundant with this feat.

 

[S'mon]

I could be wrong (my head is in the clouds at the moment) but I think you could be overcomplicating things a tad.

He's severely overcomplicating things IMO. He doesn't like the idea of a Ftr-20 with Con 16 but only 42 (or 12) hit points so he's thinking of how to 'justify' the reduced hp. But this is totally unnecessary. The whole point is that the permanent danage creature Takes Away Your Hit Points. Not your CON or your Level. Your Hit Points. Thus it can 'create' a Ftr-20 with CON 16 and a maximum hp total of 3.

 

[Sledge]

It may seem like I'm over complicating it, but that is how it has to be if it is annulling the actual hit points. Otherwise it is just damage from a potential. Even if it is unhealable that is not a lack of hit points, just an injury that won't heal.
UK implied that this ability actually removes the hit points rather than just damaging them. Obviously this is a confused issue with the description. What with the mechanics it sounds like damage. With the description it sounded like a player has 250 HP and gets 100 perma'd. The player then scratches out 250 and replaces it with 150 instead of marking down 100 damage. So which is it?

 

[Dyson_Omega]

Seriously, maybe if you have to create a new rule to fix a created rule that was fixing a previoulsy fixed rule to fix another rule it's time to take your original idea and throw it out.


A 20th level fighter with a 16 con and a maximum Hit point total of 3 is a broken mechanic.

Forget what horse you rode in on or who you think you are because your writing some fictional book.

You can't seriously think that this is a good mechanic? You can't seriously think that taking the x5 multiplier from Epic Spell Casting (which has nothing to do with CR's) is a suggestion to fix a monsters CR who has this ability to permently hurt you? You can't seriously think that you have a more logical arguement by telling someone they don't like it because you say they're afraid?

 

[Dyson_Omega]

Hint: If your user account currently is suspended, you're not supposed to simply register a new one and continue posting.

Yeah, but it was genius.

 

[Kalanyr]

Well to be fair I think I can explain the problem with permanent HP loss.

In 3e you can't permanently lose stat points unless your level 1 and getting raise dead or ressurection cast on you. Ability Damage and Drain are both cureable.

You can however lose levels (and this is okay because lowering your level means you're no longer you're previous level so the DM in fairness scales down the encounters and if he doesn't its still okay because your lower level means you get more XP/encounter which means that if not everyone is effected the person who was starts to catch up), this doesn't really work with lost HP, because lost HP doesn't effect your level. So you still get the feeling you should be facing appropriate monsters for your level and in that case you're effectively doomed. Its far more depressing in that sense to lose HP than levels.

Also the entropy thing vanishing bits should logically easily be cured with the regeneration spell, its entire purpose is to grow back bits that aren't there.

A level 20 character who loses 4 levels is a level 16 character, this is fair and recoverable

A level 20 character who loses 75% of his HP will always have lost 75% of his Hp comparatively to a character of the same level. And unlike the previous level 20 no matter what he does he's always weaker than a character of the same level, forever and ever and ever. I dislike the Firewight ability for the same reason. Its crippling a character without the dignity of defense.

I suppose I'd dislike a con-sucking monster on death for the same reason, its fundamentally altering the characters ability to be as powerful as his level indicates. I wouldn't mind a monster that made True Ressing have the effect of costing a level though.

I guess I'm weird and possibly my logic fails to make sense but thats my explanation.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I guess I'm weird and possibly my logic fails to make sense but thats my explanation.

In the abstract your logic fails because it discounts the possibility that the DM assigns characters with significant perm. hp loss a negative ECL modifier, making them effectively lower level and in just the same position as the newly 16th-level fighter.

In the concrete I don't know how U_K proposes handling this and I don't have experience playing at super-epic levels where this comes up. (I haven't played a real campaign beyond 30th level, and I haven't done anything beyond the low 40s.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Dyson!

Seriously, maybe if you have to create a new rule to fix a created rule that was fixing a previoulsy fixed rule to fix another rule it's time to take your original idea and throw it out.

You are confusing me, the idea and application of permanent damage is straightforward...you can't heal the damage without extreme measures, its as simple as that. I haven't created any new rules to fix anything. So I don't really know what you on about here?

A 20th level fighter with a 16 con and a maximum Hit point total of 3 is a broken mechanic.

I disagree.

Is a 20th-level Fighter with no hp broken? No. Simply dead until, in all likelihood they get the proper attention.

Is a 20th-level Fighter dropped to 3 hp with Vile Damage broken. No. Simply messed up until they get the appropriate attention.

How about a 20th-level Fighter dropped to 3 hp from normal damage, is that broken. No. Again, simply in trouble until they get the appropriate attention.

Permanent damage is no different, simply that it requires far more powerful means to recover from such damage (limited wish and wish respectively).

Forget what horse you rode in on or who you think you are because your writing some fictional book.

For someone who doesn't even believe the book is real I appreciate your interest!

...oh and the horse is called Sleipnir.

You can't seriously think that this is a good mechanic?

Its a great mechanic.

You can't seriously think that taking the x5 multiplier from Epic Spell Casting (which has nothing to do with CR's) is a suggestion to fix a monsters CR who has this ability to permently hurt you?

Well its clear that WotC believe that a permanent effect relates to a x5 multiplier, so that was the basis for my testing with permanent damage and as it happened, testing showed x5 to be fairly accurate and practical, as I commented on previously.

Logically permanent damage (as with any conceivable ability) must have a CR modifier, we simply have to determine what that modifier is.

If you have a case for something other than x5 (or indeed x4 with the optional restoration from limited wish/wish as standard) then I would be most happy to hear what it is...?

You can't seriously think that you have a more logical arguement by telling someone they don't like it because you say they're afraid?

Of course not and that was never any part of the argument in support of the ability.

I seem to remember we resolved this angle a few days ago, though I suppose that could have been when you were on hiatus.

That said, as I have mentioned a few times already, I like the idea of monsters that will frighten epic and immortal players. Which to be fair, ability drain and energy drain don't really do anymore, given the propensity of ways to defeat them at such levels of power.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kalanyr mate!

Well to be fair I think I can explain the problem with permanent HP loss.

In 3e you can't permanently lose stat points unless your level 1 and getting raise dead or ressurection cast on you. Ability Damage and Drain are both cureable.

You can however lose levels (and this is okay because lowering your level means you're no longer you're previous level so the DM in fairness scales down the encounters and if he doesn't its still okay because your lower level means you get more XP/encounter which means that if not everyone is effected the person who was starts to catch up), this doesn't really work with lost HP, because lost HP doesn't effect your level.

Except that I already stated exactly how lost hit points affects your CR/ECL.

The problem faced would be exactly the same whether or not the damage was caused by normal or vile damage or constitution drain/loss, or energy drain. Permanent damage is simply far harder to heal.

So you still get the feeling you should be facing appropriate monsters for your level and in that case you're effectively doomed. Its far more depressing in that sense to lose HP than levels.

I would use the word foreboding rather than depressing.

Also the entropy thing vanishing bits should logically easily be cured with the regeneration spell, its entire purpose is to grow back bits that aren't there.

Think of it as erasing hit points so that they never existed. For instance a human can't use regeneration to grow a third arm.

A level 20 character who loses 4 levels is a level 16 character, this is fair and recoverable

A level 20 character who loses 75% of his HP will always have lost 75% of his Hp comparatively to a character of the same level.

Technically not true, as I mentioned above, I already showed how their CR/ECL changes.

Also your above dichotomy was not really fair. A loss of 4 levels on a level 20 character would be consistant with a loss of 20% of a characters hit points - not 75%.

And unlike the previous level 20 no matter what he does he's always weaker than a character of the same level, forever and ever and ever.

Unless he has access to, or the wealth to purchase limited wishes and wishes, yes.

I dislike the Firewight ability for the same reason. Its crippling a character without the dignity of defense.

Be thankful that there is now a 'get out of jail free' card with regards permanent damage.

I suppose I'd dislike a con-sucking monster on death for the same reason, its fundamentally altering the characters ability to be as powerful as his level indicates. I wouldn't mind a monster that made True Ressing have the effect of costing a level though.

Glad to hear it.

I guess I'm weird and possibly my logic fails to make sense but thats my explanation.

Your concerns made sense to me, however, you may not have been up to date with my idea of making the formerly optional recovery method standard instead.