The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anabstercorian mate!

20 days remaining.

While you were here you could have at least addressed the topic at hand about massive spellcasting prowess.

I did some multi-tasking while I was out shopping there and it looks like you could destroy a planet with a 50th-level spell or thereabouts.

To put that into perspective the Seraphim (effectively Overgods) in the Bestiary can cast 33rd-level spells, although obviously they are not min/maxed simply for spellcasting.

Boccob the Greater God of Magic would be a 96th-level Wizard under my auspices, probably capable of 50th-level spells on his own (depending on Portfolios/Divine Abilities).

 

[historian]

Hey U_K.

I did some multi-tasking while I was out shopping there and it looks like you could destroy a planet with a 50th-level spell or thereabouts.

To put that into perspective the Seraphim (effectively Overgods) in the Bestiary can cast 33rd-level spells, although obviously they are not min/maxed simply for spellcasting.

Boccob the Greater God of Magic would be a 96th-level Wizard under my auspices, probably capable of 50th-level spells on his own (depending on Portfolios/Divine Abilities).

While I definitely don't want to encourage the re-invention of any wheel, doesn't this seem a bit overpowered on an ECL basis? I mean, a 100th level caster with no templates could probably wipe out a planet. By comparison, what could an ECL 196 Greater Deity do?

Interesting.

 

[Anabstercorian]

19 and a half!

Okay, okay, here's my feedback: 50th level spells should not be blowing up planets, given the levels I presume you gain access to them. Given how many critters can cast spells at high levels of power in your bestiary, it's something you'll have to deal with. However! It's not something you have to deal with yet, as you don't actually have to include all the rules for high level spellcasting in the Bestiary. You can save it for Libram. PRIORITIZE. Follow through, man! Finish the job and move on to the next one!

19 and one quarter.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K.

Hi historian matey!

While I definitely don't want to encourage the re-invention of any wheel, doesn't this seem a bit overpowered on an ECL basis?

I sort of had initial reservations myself. But remember the BoVD Orcus could survive a 128 KT Blast in a low physical factor setting.

I mean, a 100th level caster with no templates could probably wipe out a planet.

Well this is a 100th-level spellcaster who is completely min/maxed pouring every feat into this endeavour.

By comparison, what could an ECL 196 Greater Deity do?

Defeat the 100th-level spellcaster. Then cast deus ex machina to reverse the destruction the wizard just caused.

Interesting.

I just like the idea that the Rain of Colourless Fire, Invoked Devastation and that sort of epic magic are feasible, because quite frankly under the official epic spellcasting rules they are not. Not by a long shot either.

Stuff like creating a planet should probably be just about feasible for a Greater Deity.

I know a lot of people will mention 40th-level characters in a 'ho-hum' way, like they are 'two-a-penny'. But actually getting to 40th-level fairly under the 3rd Ed. rules is not going to be easy! Its not like 1st Edition. But by the same token, the characters are 'pound for pound' far, far tougher. However, I think a lot of people are stuck in the 1st/2nd Ed. mindset of power to an extent myself included.

Immortal gaming has to mean something different, and I think the worship points system is that something.

But in a similar way epic gaming has to mean something different also. You certainly don't get a sense of this from the epic spell system because its all just so feeble. You want to be able to do 'epic' things. Teleport a Fortress (I need to watch Krull again), Kill and raise a whole country as Undead, Make a City a dead magic zone, Create a new Ice Age, Divorce a god from their divinity, Create an Earthquake thats 10.0 on the Richter Scale (the one in the PHB is 5.0 by the way), Summon all Dragons of the world, Place an entire continent of people in stasis, maybe Blow up a planet or two even.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

19 and a half!

Okay, okay, here's my feedback: 50th level spells should not be blowing up planets, given the levels I presume you gain access to them.

Totally min/maxed you get them at (roughly) 1/2 levels. Although that may not be feasible because you would have to keep your primary ability score equal to 10 + spell level.

But I have to ask why you should not be blowing up planets at 100th-level? What even makes you think there are ANY 100th-level epic spellcasters (non-deities that is)?

Given how many critters can cast spells at high levels of power in your bestiary, it's something you'll have to deal with.

Actually I won't have to deal with it because this new ruling isn't addressed in the Bestiary. Also even if I did address it (which would only take a single sentence by the way - its that simple) it wouldn't change anything in the Bestiary.

However! It's not something you have to deal with yet, as you don't actually have to include all the rules for high level spellcasting in the Bestiary. You can save it for Libram. PRIORITIZE. Follow through, man! Finish the job and move on to the next one!

True, true.

19 and one quarter.

Make it 19. I am going out in 2 minutes.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I won't say exactly what it is just yet, but I think it has some exciting repercussions for epic games.

...including being able to destroy a planet (Earth sized) with one spell before 100th-level (although admittedly thats a totally min-maxed caster).

I have to say I'm totally unconcerned about this. A single 50th-level character (reasonably martial) could probably single-handedly conquor any continent/landmass in my world; only logistics would prevent the character from taking over the world. Being able to destroy it at 100th level just doesn't seem like a big deal.

 

[Baronovan]

But there's a big difference between being unbeatable in combat and being able to "hit" a planet so hard that it is destroyed. Certainly more than a +100% increase... IMO, at least, but as in all things we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[CRGreathouse]

But there's a big difference between being unbeatable in combat and being able to "hit" a planet so hard that it is destroyed. Certainly more than a +100% increase... IMO, at least, but as in all things we'll just have to wait and see.

Yeah, but that happens over 50 levels... and it takes min-maxing and your most powerful custom spell.

 

[S'mon]

IMO spells should not be destroying (or creating!) real planets in any but the very lowest physical-factor & reality-factor settings. Most creation myths (a) involve overgods and (b) involve shaping a pre-existing reality, often primarily determined by natural mechanistic forces - look at the Norse & Graeco-Roman creation myths. Anyway, do you want PCs blowing up planets? That's the question. I don't. And I don't need 50th level spells to explain the Rain of Colourless Fire, which was a group effort by a lot of Bakluni Archmages using an esoteric ritual and several artifacts...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Baranovan mate!

But there's a big difference between being unbeatable in combat and being able to "hit" a planet so hard that it is destroyed. Certainly more than a +100% increase... IMO, at least, but as in all things we'll just have to wait and see.

Trust your uncle Krust!

The mechanics are simplicity itself. Also the relationships between affect and effect are far more pronounced when compared to the current rules which makes things actually more balanced.

Philosophically I think it makes a lot more sense.

Using the current system of epic magic, you need to be almost 50th-level to cast things like Hellball. Thats 33% weaker than a quickened Meteor Swarm + a Meteor Swarm (Something you could actually do at 17th-level with a Greater Rod of Metamagic: Quickened Spell).

Theres just no perspective. Gaming to 50th-level even is going to be incredibly difficult. So it has to mean something above and beyond the sum of its parts.

It should be noted that most of the Forgotten Realms NPCs were actually converted to 3rd Ed. on a level for level basis, which is totally ludicrous given the difference in difficulty between levelling up in 3rd Ed. compared to previous editions.

In one relatively small region of Toril there are: 24th, 25th (4*), 27th, 28th, 29th (2), 30th, 32nd, 35th = 12 epic characters (13 counting Driz'zt who must be 20th+ by now), and thats only the ones in the ELH, there are probably a dozen or so more that just haven't been updated yet.

*counting the 3 Manshoons.

By illustrating this I mean to point out that the Forgotten Realms make it look like getting to epic level is easy, but I no longer think thats the case.