OD&D The OA Theory- When OD&D Became Second Edition

[Shadow Demon]

There’s an entire thread correcting this assumption by none other than Rob Kuntz himself. And great news! It’s on the front page. So we don’t need to rehash the whole thing again here....

You are correct if Rob Kuntz is indeed correct which I would say he is not. Rob contributed to the Greyhawk OD&D supplement and bit to Deities & Demigods. So.his mechanical contribution is slightly more than Arneson.

Arneson had a great idea but his mechanical contribution to the early game is near zero. Anything else is blatant revisionism.

 

[Sacrosanct]

You are correct if Rob Kuntz is indeed correct which I would say he is not. Rob contributed to the Greyhawk OD&D supplement and bit to Deities & Demigods. So.his mechanical contribution is slightly more than Arneson.

Arneson had a great idea but his mechanical contribution to the early game is near zero. Anything else is blatant revisionism.

I’ll trust the word of someone who was there over some random person on the internet guessing. No offense

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I've been chomping at the bit to correct a grievous error as I've been reading through this, until I finally saw some mention of it in a few posts. But it still bears strong emphasis:

Manual of the Planes was the best product ever made for AD&D. In fact, it was probably the best roleplaying product made up to that point. Better than OD&D, better than the 1e DMG, and certainly the best thing since (or rather, the best thing even including) the d20.

In the midst of well reasoned opinions, I felt it was necessary to clarify this simple fact for newcomers to the hobby that may not have realized the tongue in cheek nature of mentioning MotP alongside some less than stellar products.

 

[Yaarel]

In 1974 (0e D&D Men & Magic), Gygax describes Arneson.

"ONCE UPON A TIME, long, long ago there was a little group known as the
Castle and Crusade Society. THEIR FANTASY RULES were published, and to this writer's knowledge, brought about much of the current interest in fantasy wargaming. For a time the group grew and prospered. ...

and DAVE ARNESON decided to begin a medieval fantasy campaign game for his active Twin Cities club. ...

From the CHAINMAIL fantasy rules he drew ideas for a far more complex and exciting game, and thus began a campaign which still thrives as of this writing!

In due course the news reached my ears, and the RESULT is what you have in your hands at this moment."



Here, Gygax describes Original D&D 0e as the ‘result’ of the game that Arneson and his players are playing.



In 1975 (0e D&D Blackmoor), Gygax describes Arneson.

"Dave Arneson ... is a man of many talents who has authored many historic rules sets and games (which TSR will be publishing periodically).

Dave is ... the innovator of the "dungeon adventure" concept ...

and inscrutable dungeonmaster par excellence.

He devises complex combat systems, inexplicable dungeon and wilderness areas, and traps of the most subtle fiendishness.

This writer [Gygax] always looks forward with great anticipation to an adventure in the "BLACKMOOR" campaign.

For despite the fact that I co-authored the original work with Dave, and have spent hundreds of hours creating and playing DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, it is always a fresh challenge to enter his "world".

I would rather play in his campaign than any other.

... Other dungeonmasters who emulate Dave Arneson will indeed improve their games."



Here, Gygax credits Arneson with the invention of the concept of D&D.

Gygax also credits Arneson with the ongoing development of rules, including combat systems, as they emerge within the context of his Blackmoor game.

Gygax follows these developments avidly, and publicizes them thru TSR publications.

In addition to a game inventor, Arneson is also a skilled DM.

Both rules systems (mechanics) and narrative genre (flavor) derive mainly from Arneson and his players.



D&D 1e is the culmination of the mechanics and flavors of both Arneson and Gygax. Or perhaps more accurately, it is Gygax’s version of what Arneson is doing. Gygax had to settle with Arneson with regard to D&D 1e, and Arneson still received royalties from D&D 1e.



However, except for the D&D 1e three core books (MM, PH, DMG), the rest of D&D 1e is without new input from Arneson.

 

[Shadow Demon]

I’ll trust the word of someone who was there over some random person on the internet guessing. No offense

None taken. Just a difference in opinion on Kuntz’s credibility. The D&D mechanics were a collaborative effort. If the truth is the Gygax’s were less than believed it doesn’t make Arneson’s more.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I’d say the best product for D&D overall was Mentzers basic set. For a lot of reasons, not just because it was a great product from a writing, layout, and aesthetic perspective.

Second place goes to the AD&D paint line (many of which I still have and use to this day)

Third place goes to the wood burning set. Ok, maybe not

 

[Shadow Demon]

However, except for the D&D 1e three core books (MM, PH, DMG), the rest of D&D 1e is without new input from Arneson.

I would love to know what specific mechanics that Arneson contributed in 1e core. Being generous the monk and assassin from Blackmoor come to mind. Alas, we shall never know.

 

[Yaarel]

I would love to know what specific mechanics that Arneson contributed in 1e core. Being generous the monk and assassin from Blackmoor come to mind. Alas, we shall never know.

Obviously, Arneson and his players roleplay more than just ‘monks and assassins’.

The D&D 0e core books (Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Underworld & Wilderness) represent the kinds of things that Arneson and his players were doing.



People have described a difference between the styles of Arneson and Gygax.

Arneson was more improvisational. Do whatever you want, and Arneson will try to adjudicate. This might resemble the 5e concept of backgrounds and skill checks. Players imagine some action, the DM decides how viable it seems.

By contrast, Gygax was more reductionist. You can only do things if there are rules to do it on your character sheet.



However, both of them were quite excruciating about the complexity of combat rules, which, thank goodness, D&D has abandoned since.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

There is an utterly fatal flaw in this theory, though. UA came out in June 1985 and OA October 1985. The order is reversed.

OA even assumes UA by presenting the Samurai as a Cavalier subclass.

 

[Ancalagon]

So, I have a thought that's been percolating for a while, and it's gone from inchoate to half-baked status ... which means that it's time to share!

Today, I unveil my OA Theory. Um, no, this isn't the theory about how interpretive dance can get us to parallel worlds. Instead, it is my grand unified theory that's been working in the back of my skull for a while as to when OD&D, as a general concept, ended.

Are you ready?

Are you sitting down?

The golden period, the glory years, the REAL D&D officially ended November, 1985. Since that time, we have all been in nothing more than a poor holographic simulation of a D&D game. Or maybe a zombie-filled apocalypse. Still working on that part. ahem

So why that date? We all know about the continuity of time and editions between OD&D, 1e, B/X, BECMI, and 2e (1974-2000), and that they are largely interchangeable. But there is also a difference between, say, late-period 2e and OD&D. Or between B/X and Rules Cyclopedia.

Here's the theory- before a date certain, we were all playing Old D&D. Maybe,... Classic D&D. After that date .... New D&D.* And the dividing line isn't exactly the ouster of Gygax, although it is in the ballpark.**

It's Oriental Adventures. That's right. If you look at the publication history in the 1e line, you see a clear line from:
(1974) OD&D -> Holmes Basic -> 1e (1977)

Within 1e, you see the classics of the genre:
1977 Monster Manual
1978 Player's Handbook
1979 DM's Guide
1980 Deities & Demigods
1981 Fiend Folio
1983 Monster Manual II
1985 Legends & Lore
October 1985 Oriental Adventures

Then, everything that sucked.
December 1985 Unearthed Arcana
1986 Dungeoneer's Survival Guide
1986 Wilderness Survival Guide
1987 Manual of the Planes
1987 Dragonlance Adventures
1988 Greyhawk Adventures

To be clear, I am not trying to yuck anyone's yum, or state that those people who enjoyed Kim Mohan's stewardship of the WSG should be ashamed of themselves***, just that October 1985 was the end of CD&D.

Why?

Well, it could have been space radiation. Or maybe a virus.

Wait, why do I think that this marks the end? It's a stylistic thing. Oriental Adventures, and books prior to it, whether you like them or not, have a distinct P.O.V.; this changes diametrically in the two books following: UA (an explosion of options, cantrips, and poorly-thought out ideas) and DSG (the beginning of the "splat books" we would see in 2e).

So, there's my theory. Classic D&D ended in November, 1985.




*1985 was also New Coke, and Classic Coke. Coincidence, or CONSPIRACY?

**The fateful meeting was October 1985, but it wasn't decided until October 1986.

***I won't discourage it, either.

OA even assumes UA by presenting the Samurai as a Cavalier subclass.

Oof, lowkey 's premise is crushed by a gnome.... won't live that one down.