The "orc baby" paladin problem

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Sure, but I presume it wasn't the tadpoles that brought the people in there. I don't think anyone should blame my toddler because he ate the bologna sandwich I made him. I did the shopping. I provided the provender. He did what his daddy told him to do because he doesn't really know any better.

At some point, doesn't a child figure it out? (These tadpoles are more intellectually developed than toddlers.)

The point I was making is that just because someone pings as evil that they are or will be some kind of murdering maniac. Death is not always the correct response to evil.

I'm not arguing a specific point of view here that much, just providing additional information.

 

[Harlath]

One good way to deal with this situation in character is to have the paladin or another party member with Knowledge: Religion use the skill to remember a story from the paladin's faith outlining the 'correct' resolution(s). This can come for a popular book of Saints and their deeds etc. [There is also the option of forgina a new path and having some sort of crazed doctrinal war, which is always a good laugh, see Wyre]. This helps communicate the DM's idea of what the paladin should do, and underlines the importance of having a feasible solution in mind.

 

[LostSoul]

So, what would your paladins do in this situation?

I would gather them up in my canteen or something, then take them back to my church.

As a DM, what's your read on the spiritual burden on a paladin, depending on his actions?

Whatever the player wants it to be.

 

[Elf Witch]

I would gather them up in my canteen or something, then take them back to my church.



Whatever the player wants it to be.

You did read that these tadpoles are so big they fit into a barrel? They would not fit into your canteen.

And that brings up the question if they are so big and the party does not have access to a wagon just how are they supposed to transport these babies to a monastary?

Also all the people who are saying take them to the church do your normal churches and monasteries have mid and high level NPCs at them?

Mine don't usually so if you dropped off a bunch of baby trolls who then went bad the clergy would be hard pressed to stop them.

 

[Trench]

Jeez... every time I check these boards, there seems to be another paladin morality thread...

Before people make too many assumptions, one should check out the paladin's player's thread on this very question.

It wasn't a trick to make anyone please the DM, or make a player fall, and it wasn't cheesy either. It was more like a test of ethics.

Personally, I could see a paladin either killing or not killing the child-trolls/tadpoles and both being the right answer. It's just different interpretations of the same bible (as evidenced by the two LG members- both raised in the same religion, one a paladin one a fighter- of the party arguing about it...)

The best description I've seen tossed out is that Paladins are like Superman, moral-wise. WWSD?

 

[Trench]

Also... I'm pretty sure Whiz didn't have ANY set idea what the paladin was supposed to do. He just wanted to see what would happen if the character was presented with the choice...

Probably so he could know what buttons to press for later issues... BASTARD!

 

[Set]

If they detect as evil, then it doesn't matter how old they are, they are clearly possessed by some sort of demonic influence that makes them evil. They've already been denied the chance to choose not to be evil by whatever is making them detect as evil, so killing them would be a mercy, really.

Or, in a more medieval verbiage, 'If my god didn't want me to kill them, he wouldn't have gifted me with this knowledge of their evil natures. It would be a sin to defy the warning my god has sent me.'

 

[I'm A Banana]

it's not a good act, since they are not respecting the lives of innocent creatures.

The creatures are not innocent.

They register as evil.

Which means that their personalities carry the taint of cruelty, torment, and suffering inflicted upon others. Those aren't just troll babies, those are every piece the wicked beings they will be when they grow up, filled with the delight in the suffering of others just as their parents were.

There is nothing wicked or bad or wrong in D&D about killing what is evil.

The Paladin might be thinking it's kind of dishonorable, and he'd be kind of right -- the prey is defenseless, after all.

The Paladin might give them to a local church, hoping that atonement and temple work would surround them with the light of Goodness. He might let them run free, hoping that he or future generations of paladins can meet them in respected combat, or that they meet their deaths before then (what chance do troll tadpoles have without their parents?) He may also view them as evil "things" rather than as evil "beings," and treat them the same way he'd treat an evil tome of necromancy: burn 'em.

 

[Aaron L]

It's finally come up in my Midwood campaign (OK, I finally made it come up ):

After dispatching a pair of murderous river trolls (scrags) in their underwater cave, the party discovered a series of water-filled barrels brought to the area by the trolls. Each contains a scrag tadpole. The paladin sees them registering as evil, but he also doesn't believe they will be a threat for quite some time.

The rest of the party wants to dispatch them. The paladin is aghast at killing helpless tadpoles. He's normally pretty practical, although he's also extremely idealistic (his fondness for Superman has served him well, IMO).

So, what would your paladins do in this situation? As a DM, what's your read on the spiritual burden on a paladin, depending on his actions?

I would have a very hard time justifying tadpoles as being Evil, regardless of what they will one day grow up to become. Killing the babies of any intelligent species is one big line I would never allow a Paladin to cross no matter how many contorted manipulations of Alignment he tried to present.


They may have a tendency to become Evil, maybe even a very big tendency, but raising and culture are just as important, or all humans would be Neutral regardless of where they grew up.

 

[GlassJaw]

Nothing is born innately evil. It grows up and learns to be evil.

Would you say the same about sexual preference? Don't answer that - just illustrating a point.

I didn't read the whole thread but you could argue that killing a baby's parents and then leaving it there to die on its own is just as cruel as killing it and possibly even moreso. So then what? Is the paladin going to take the babies of every monster he's killed with him and raise it so it's not evil? No.

In a standard D&D campaign, I say kill away, only because paladins are annoying and I don't want stuff like this slowing the game down.