The "orc baby" paladin problem

[ruleslawyer]

I can see why so many paladin threads go so many pages and that is that no one can agree on what is an evil act.

It may be fun to debate things like this on a board but I can tell you it is not fun in a game.

DnD is a game and to put paladins in the postion where if they sneeze wrong they lose their paladin powers is just ridiculous.

Games are supposed to be fun. Isn't that why we play?

Any other class could kill these scags with no penalty. And move on to the next adventure but not the paladin no he who has detect evil at will and smite evil X times a day must walk a tightrope to figure out how to please a DM or lose his class abilities.

I'd question whether this is actually a real problem in most actual games to begin with. It's never been in mine. (Also, IMC, a non-paladin would not be able to commit an evil act "without penalty." Evil deeds have real consequences in my game world.)

 

[ruleslawyer]

You haven't read comics for a while. Superman not only killed in his earliest appearances, but has done so periodically over the last decade.

Really? I'd love to see an example or two. Seriously, I thought refusing to kill was at the core of the character at least since Byrne.

 

[tzor]

Oh and if a creatures detects as Evil, it is the paladin's god-given duty (literally) to smite them. Otherwise, what's the point?

No! No! And Thrice no even!

The first no: "Detect Evil" isn't binary. There are different levels of evil detected by the spell and these in turn are based on different siutations. You don't even have to have an evil alignment to show up as evil, a Neutral cleric of an evil deity glows as brightly as any undead or oursider. Detect Evil is basically a threat level detection system.

The second no: Paladin's don't have "god-given duties." Paladins have a code.

The third no: Smiting evil is not in and of itself an end. It is a means, to an end of keeping evil from harming innocents. It is not the only means to that end, but it is often the most necessary one. (Honestly, I'm really thinking of adding a question, "can you explain the 'just war theory?'" to anyone who wants to play a paladin.)

 

[Seeten]

Superman doesn't have tadpoles as archvillians, and when his enemies reoffend he can't instantly stop them before harm comes to anyone. Whole planets get wiped out before he can stop them in some cases. Batman's villians regularly escape Arkham and commit murder. But DnD isn't a 4-colour comic. Paladins aren't superheros.

He also doesnt leave the truly dangerous ones alive.

For Example: See Doomsday. Too dangerous to leave alive, and "killed" by Superman.

 

[Trench]

Superman is indestructible, and Super fast, with heightened senses, and x-ray vision, so he can afford to let the "Tadpoles" lie, and know instantly when they "reoffend" and stop them before harm comes to anyone, without any fear for his safety.

I think you'll agree Paladins dont have this same ability.

I do agree. But plenty of other heroes are indestrcutible, are super fast, etc. And they aren't Superman either.

What makes Superman Superman is his moral compass and his constant quest to be a standard for others to look up to. It's the same thing as saying Batman is just a guy with pointy ears and cool gadgets. It's the obsessive drive and self-made need for justice that makes Batman Batman. It's the character, not the trappings.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

er, Whizbang, maybe folks are "confusing" the matter because you titled this thread "the orc baby paladin problem" not "the orc adolescent who has already killed multiple sentient beings but is not quite full grown paladin problem."

You framed the situation in a way that naturally evoked assumptions of the tadpoles as helpless and currently blameless. Turning around and criticising people who respond to a thread with the word "baby" in the title as if you are talking about babies.... I'm going to assume it indicates a poor choice of thread title rather than any intent to cause confusion, but I'd tone down your responses.

Wow, what's with all the accusations of intentionally trolling? I've had more than 4,000 posts here. Even without search capability, it's not hard to see what my normal posts are like.

And yes, I shouldn't have thought people would go off the posts more than the thread title, even though I know that's what people usually respond to on the Internet.

And "tone down my responses?" Re-read the post you're quoting -- I don't say anything inflammatory or insulting, I merely politely disagree.

 

[Seeten]

The expectation that all Paladins behave like Superman is why, in some games, Paladins suck to play. Superman is one character, with 1, and only 1 personality. Limiting your players to "Being Superman" is a poor take on gaming, imo.

Not to mention the other issues. Name the other characters that have their own comic, who are as powerful as Superman, please, by the way?

I can think of Spectre, and Lucifer. Got any others? Both of those guys kill with impunity, so lets compare like to like.

 

[Vanuslux]

Really? I'd love to see an example or two. Seriously, I thought refusing to kill was at the core of the character at least since Byrne.

Well, he not only killed but summarily executed General Zod and his band in the early days. That's all I know about for sure, beyond Elseworlds type stories, as I haven't read much modern Superman.

 

[Seeten]

Really? I'd love to see an example or two. Seriously, I thought refusing to kill was at the core of the character at least since Byrne.

He intentionally killed Doomsday, with no idea that Doomsday could "self-res" or whatever he does.

The quote was, I believe, "This monster ... must be ... stopped...permanently"

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The expectation that all Paladins behave like Superman is why, in some games, Paladins suck to play. Superman is one character, with 1, and only 1 personality. Limiting your players to "Being Superman" is a poor take on gaming, imo.

Not to mention the other issues. Name the other characters that have their own comic, who are as powerful as Superman, please, by the way?

I can think of Spectre, and Lucifer. Got any others? Both of those guys kill with impunity, so lets compare like to like.

Green Lanterns have been as tough as Superman under various writers, and Wonder Woman has been close. And, as you suggest, most of them kill at least once in a while.