The "orc baby" paladin problem

[Trench]

I
The point though is that a group pf adventurers without a paladin in the group could kill these troll young and move on. But according to some of the people here if a paladin in their game did he would lose his class abilities.

See I have a big problem with that. Losing your class abillities for something that other lawful good non paladins could do just does not seem to be very fair to the player of the paladin.

Its situation like this that puts the paladin in conflict with the party and leads to either the paladin forcing his will on everyone else or the paladin having to leave the party.

See, I agree with the first two paragraphs, but I don't think the third automatically follows.

Alignments are guidelines. It's a spectrum. In the campaign in question, the two characters who argued the most about the issue was the LG paladin and the other LG figher. Both firmly within their alignment, but just different takes on the situation.

I don't see how a party split automatically happens with this. Morality isn't black and white, and I think the best paladins are those that recognize that fact and try to strive for good anyway. It often result sin conflict, but it doesn't automatically have to be earth shattering... But then again, I like my campaigns with some murk and grey in them.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, he not only killed but summarily executed General Zod and his band in the early days. That's all I know about for sure, beyond Elseworlds type stories, as I haven't read much modern Superman.

I knew about General Zod, but I've always seen the Zod thing as an exception rather than a rule. As for Doomsday: I was thinking about that, but isn't Doomsday more a construct than a living being, or am I wrong?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I knew about General Zod, but I've always seen the Zod thing as an exception rather than a rule. As for Doomsday: I was thinking about that, but isn't Doomsday more a construct than a living being, or am I wrong?

Wasn't that information only available to the readers? And it's certainly a blurry line in Doomsday's case, in any event.

 

[Shayuri]

Getting back on-topic for a second...

My answer to most paladin dilemmas is to ask: "What would God do?"

The paladin's god, specifically. There are "flavors" of Law and Good, and the balance between them. Is the paladin's god a temperate god of love and mercy? Is the paladin's god a righteous avenger, sworn to protect the land against the ravages of evil?

While myth is full of gods punishing mortals for acts no worse (or better) than the god's own actions, I tend to think fantasy gods shouldn't, in general, be hypocritical. If the god would kill the tadpoles (to protect others from the evil they'd do eventually, or just to exterminate the vermin), the paladin sure can.

On the other hand, philosophical questions like that can be great for roleplaying! Leaving some grey area like that to stimulate discussion IC and motivate a paladin to act (seeking counsel or advice perhaps) can be, if used properly, ways to develop a character and/or a whole party.

 

[Mort]

IMC characters also suffer consquences for evil deeds. For example a person who does evil acts will not be able to be healed by a cleric of a good god.

The point though is that a group pf adventurers without a paladin in the group could kill these troll young and move on. But according to some of the people here if a paladin in their game did he would lose his class abilities.

See I have a big problem with that. Losing your class abillities for something that other lawful good non paladins could do just does not seem to be very fair to the player of the paladin.

Its situation like this that puts the paladin in conflict with the party and leads to either the paladin forcing his will on everyone else or the paladin having to leave the party.

This is why, if I want to play a paladin , I make sure I know what the DM expects. If he's the type that only the lawfulest "goodiest" most pristine make it (and he doesn’t define it, he expects you to guess), or the type that imposes a moral quagmire every time the paladin draws his sword, I don't even bother.
In most of my games, the decision to fall has to be a conscious one. The player knows what he’s doing is wrong per the code (and has other options), but does it anyway.

As for the OP situation, under most D&D deities paladin ≠ pacifist. Most paladins, as I see them, would see the situation as ridding the world of an evil threat and act accordingly.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Except those degrees of evil are defined.

They aren't "Incredibly Faint", "Very Faint", "Pretty Faint", "Kinda Faint", "A Little Bit Faint", and "Faint". There's one degree, "Faint", which covers the 1HD orc, the 6HD scrag, and the
10HD Ogre Bbn-6. If all three of them were in a room, and I used Detect Evil through the closed door, the information I would receive is "Three faint evil auras"; they would be otherwise indistinguishable.

On the other hand, if the ogre were a Bbn-7, I would detect two Faint auras and a Moderate aura.

-Hyp.

Thats a power level indicator, not a rating of their sins. Or do you honestly believe a child murdering sadist with 1 hit dice is less "evil" that a 7th level lout who's a bit selfish but wouldnt do the things the other guy does. There are degrees of evil, hwoever the faint, moderate, etc is to give an indication of the creature's power (a metagame mechanic).

 

[Relique du Madde]

Here are two big questions... How big are troll tadpoles when they are "hatched?" How many troll "eggs" are usually produced at a time?

I ask these because if they are like frogs then there would be hundreds of eggs produced at once, but since there were only a handful left then that saids that these trolls must had feed on each other inorder to become the size they were (since there was nothing to prey upon them while in the barrel except for each other). Thus, one can expect that these trolls HAVE been needlessly killing and feeding on each other to insure that the next generation would be evil aligned (since most creatures do not feed off thier own species except in certain situations). Thus, they would register as evil because they committed an act against nature (the balance).

In other words, hand over the mallet, its troll busting time.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

IMC, I figure they start off with a large cluster of hen-sized eggs, probably 100 or more. And yes, they're down to six dog-sized ones. Something happened to the others, and it's likely the kind of thing that keeps my wife from watching Animal Planet with me.

 

[Harmon]

Pray, seek guildance in the form of role playing, consult the character's god's description, then tell the GM- "I think that (insert god's name) would have a belief system that would say I need to-" should the GM agree then then the character follows through.

If, however the GM gives some "its up to you," then punishes the character for his actions (letting the taddies live or die), well then the character needs to return to the church for more training on his eithical beliefs and for an atonement. This might short curcuit the campaign, or kick the character out comepletely, but the player would have role played his/her character to the hilt and that is what is important in my mind regarding the situation.

Other then that it is a tough call. I am one that believes evil must be stomped out, but I do not believe that you can be born evil. Predisposed to evil tendencies yes, but not born to it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Thats a power level indicator, not a rating of their sins. Or do you honestly believe a child murdering sadist with 1 hit dice is less "evil" that a 7th level lout who's a bit selfish but wouldnt do the things the other guy does. There are degrees of evil, hwoever the faint, moderate, etc is to give an indication of the creature's power (a metagame mechanic).

But it's the only degree the paladin can discern.

The 5th level evil cleric has a stronger aura than the 25HD Old Black Dragon.

It's not purely a power level indicator; nor is it a rating of sins. It's merely an indicator of the strength of the evil aura.

And the strength of the evil auras for the 1HD orc, the 6HD scrag, and the 10HD ogre Bbn-6 are identical.

-Hyp.