The "orc baby" paladin problem

[Trench]

The expectation that all Paladins behave like Superman is why, in some games, Paladins suck to play. Superman is one character, with 1, and only 1 personality. Limiting your players to "Being Superman" is a poor take on gaming, imo.

Not to mention the other issues. Name the other characters that have their own comic, who are as powerful as Superman, please, by the way?

I can think of Spectre, and Lucifer. Got any others? Both of those guys kill with impunity, so lets compare like to like.

I wouldn't call it an expectation at all. more like a guideline. Plenty of personality left to fill in.

As for like to like. The Sentry. And Apollo from the Authrority. Both characters were basically created as Superman analogues, but are very different. There's also Hyperion, from Squadron Supreme. Ah, and as stated above, GL and Wonder Woman are often pretty tough on Supes as well.

Oh crap! How could I have forgotten Captain Marvel! The Big Red Cheese is a perfect example...

 

[Seeten]

Wonder Woman gets shot with a high powered Rifle and spends a week in hospital. That hardly qualifies as "Almost as tough as Superman" who has withstood a nuclear bomb exploded 5 feet from his head.

Green Lanterns have huge power holes, and if you want to see how well they do against Doomsday, feel free to check into it.

basically, the fact is, Superman as written is so powerful that very few things are credible threats, so he gets the luxury of pulling his punches, and taking it easy, because he can. He's that much tougher than everyone else.

Give me a level 30 Paladin in a group of level 6's, and I'll get all morally superior also, especially if I have dr 50/- and a Holy Avenger that does 20d6 a swing.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Wonder Woman gets shot with a high powered Rifle and spends a week in hospital. That hardly qualifies as "Almost as tough as Superman" who has withstood a nuclear bomb exploded 5 feet from his head.

Green Lanterns have huge power holes, and if you want to see how well they do against Doomsday, feel free to check into it.

Easy there. That's why I specified that it depends on the writer. Green Lanterns in particular have been all over the map in power level over the decades, and Wonder Woman has been able to survive bullets to her flesh multiple times over the decades. The trend has been to depower her over the last decade or two to make the differences between her and Supes more striking.

For that matter, Superman himself has been all over the map in terms of power: He originally literally leaped around over tall buildings (shades of City of Heroes!), then could fly so fast he could rip holes in time to travel to the future. He's had laser beams come out of his eyes and at other times simply been a pyrokinetic (Byrne's Man of Steel miniseries went this direction). Sometimes he can toss mountains around, other times he's a lot weaker. Even his costume is sometimes invulnerable, sometimes not.

basically, the fact is, Superman as written is so powerful that very few things are credible threats, so he gets the luxury of pulling his punches, and taking it easy, because he can. He's that much tougher than everyone else.

Give me a level 30 Paladin in a group of level 6's, and I'll get all morally superior also, especially if I have dr 50/- and a Holy Avenger that does 20d6 a swing.

No argument. And yet, once in a while, even he finds it necessary to kill.

 

[Meeki]

Did anyone take into consideration that not dispatching of them and leaving them there might also be deemed "evil"? The tadpoles will no inevitably die if they aren't fed, and if the party knows that leaving them there to starve would also be evil "GASP". Anyways if they register as evil and they are trolls that are always evil that means that they have an evil disposition and should be dealt with according; however tadpoles that register as evil means they are able to indeed register between good and evil and act accordingly. They aren't evil outsiders or created or generic evil undead so I don't know why they are registering as evil at all.

Depending on the campaign Paladins can be various things; such as champions of Good (who happen to be lawful because of the rules) or Champions of Good and Law. In the most generic case paladins have good intentions and attempt to follow and create order. In my games I wouldn't penalize a paladin, none of my gods would keep those tadpoles alive if they were in the paladin's shoes so I dont see why a paladin would have to. Appreciation of life I have never seen as a paladin trait (unless the paladin worhips an appropriate god), sounds more of a cleric worshiper a god/goddess of "life" or a druid that has some sort of fetish with keeping things alive at all times. In my view point I don't see a generic paladin of heironious as seeing the life of evil things as sacred, even if they are helpless. In this case i dont see a tadpole registering as evil as innocent since it is obviously having evil thoughts or maybe eats its siblings in order to grow up and do more evil deeds. Personally I wouldn't have had the tadpole register as evil until it could comprehend and act upon the difference.

 

[Seeten]

Or, leaving them there might have them jump out of the barrels, and wander into the human town nearby because they are starving, and eating all the local humans?

Mightn't that be evil?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They aren't evil outsiders or created or generic evil undead so I don't know why they are registering as evil at all.

It's explained later in the two threads about this. These aren't fresh from the egg scragpoles. These guys are as big as a dog, sentient and about to sprout arms and legs. If they started off as humanoids (apparently, only I enjoy the idea of scrags being amphibians in more than just a games stats way), they'd be considered juveniles, not babies.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

It's explained later in the two threads about this. These aren't fresh from the egg scragpoles. These guys are as big as a dog, sentient and about to sprout arms and legs. If they started off as humanoids (apparently, only I enjoy the idea of scrags being amphibians in more than just a games stats way), they'd be considered juveniles, not babies.

Actually, I think that's pretty cool.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Wow, what's with all the accusations of intentionally trolling?

hrm, not the best reader yourself, are you? "I'm going to assume it indicates a poor choice of thread title rather than any intent to cause confusion..."

 

[Elf Witch]

I'd question whether this is actually a real problem in most actual games to begin with. It's never been in mine. (Also, IMC, a non-paladin would not be able to commit an evil act "without penalty." Evil deeds have real consequences in my game world.)

IMC characters also suffer consquences for evil deeds. For example a person who does evil acts will not be able to be healed by a cleric of a good god.

The point though is that a group pf adventurers without a paladin in the group could kill these troll young and move on. But according to some of the people here if a paladin in their game did he would lose his class abilities.

See I have a big problem with that. Losing your class abillities for something that other lawful good non paladins could do just does not seem to be very fair to the player of the paladin.

Its situation like this that puts the paladin in conflict with the party and leads to either the paladin forcing his will on everyone else or the paladin having to leave the party.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

hrm, not the best reader yourself, are you?

As I said, it's happened multiple times.