The "orc baby" paladin problem

[Hypersmurf]

Why can't an orc just be some evil guy humanoid. Born from mud. When times get bad, more emerge from the filth of the ground. When times are good, they go back into the ground.

Now half-orcs are even ickier!

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This was the first thing that came to my mind, as well. Personally, I don't think babies of any naturally-occurring, humanoid race are evil. In other words, it's nurture, not nature, that puts the evil into the troll. Being born with a pre-disposition towards evil is fine, but being born evil is for fiends and such.

Isn't being born with a predisposition towards evil an argument for nature over nurture?

I'd again point to MMp305, which implies that the elven 'Usually CG' alignment is 'genetic', not cultural.

-Hyp.

 

[Elf Witch]

See, I agree with the first two paragraphs, but I don't think the third automatically follows.

Alignments are guidelines. It's a spectrum. In the campaign in question, the two characters who argued the most about the issue was the LG paladin and the other LG figher. Both firmly within their alignment, but just different takes on the situation.

I don't see how a party split automatically happens with this. Morality isn't black and white, and I think the best paladins are those that recognize that fact and try to strive for good anyway. It often result sin conflict, but it doesn't automatically have to be earth shattering... But then again, I like my campaigns with some murk and grey in them.

You have never had the pleasure then of playing a paldin in a game where the DM has really strong opinions on what is evil.

I know DMs who would penalize a paladin who did not use force to stop his party from carring out their plans to kill the evil troll babies.

I have seen arguments go on where the party feels that beause the paladin would not let them deal with an evil creature by killing it instead they have to take it back to town for judgemment as an excuse that that the paladin gets everything his way and that he by being a paladin has now put the rest of the parry in danger.

 

[Trench]

You have never had the plasure then of playing a paldin in a game where the DM has really strong opinions on what is evil.

Well, I can't argue that. Given some of the discussion, I don't think I'd want to.

 

[PallidPatience]

First, my vote. I'd say to kill the scragpoles, since they're old enough to know what they're doing. Then, this quote:

The best description I've seen tossed out is that Paladins are like Superman, moral-wise. WWSD?

I direct you to this web-site:

What would Superman do, indeed...

Which of those comic covers exemplifies a paladin to you?

Or were you speaking about his exploits from a different era?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Isn't being born with a predisposition towards evil an argument for nature over nurture?

I'd again point to MMp305, which implies that the elven 'Usually CG' alignment is 'genetic', not cultural.

-Hyp.

See, I like those entries, but I always read them just the opposite way.

The entries that say, "ALWAYS evil" indicate a hard-wired nature; the ones that say "Usually" indicate a creature capable of alignment change.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I direct you to this web-site:

What would Superman do, indeed...

Which of those comic covers exemplifies a paladin to you?

Or were you speaking about his exploits from a different era?

You do know those covers are intentionally playing against expectations to get people to wonder "why would Superman do something like that?" They weren't great writing by any means, but they invariably come back to "oh, it makes sense now."

Frankly, I think D&D could use a bit more of paladins behaving like that.

 

[PallidPatience]

Oh, I know. I just love those covers, and the clash against the normal Superman view. And it's hilarious to point out even these snapshots of insanity to people who throw out Superman as the perfect Paladin (which I disagree with for entirely different reasons).

 

[phindar]

I never liked the Superman/Paladin comparison because Superman gets to factor being invulnerable into his decision making process, and that's something Paladins don't get until they're well into the double-digit character levels.

Since D&D has always kept a modern viewpoint in regards to moral guidelines, I've found a better guide to paladinal behavior to be the cops of Law and Order, particularly SVU. CI too, but Goren is on thin ice with me. (The more I watch that show, the more I think, "That'll never hold up in court." But D'Ofonario and Erbe are fun to watch, as are the B-team.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Doesn't whatshisname on SVU regularly assault suspects? Not terribly lawful behavior. Goren -- realism aside -- comes at his job with both a lawful and good perspective.