The "orc baby" paladin problem

[GreatLemur]

I agree with the next to rattlesnakes analogy.

Unless the Paladin has a reason to doubt his Detection (such as some sort of history with it being inaccurate due to outside influences), you as the DM mandated the slaughter of those tadpoles once they registered as evil. Trolls aren't people. They're vicious ravenous monsters... thier young are just as blinded by hunger and bloodlust.

What's your definition of "people"? Trolls have a base Int of 6, can take class levels, and have variable alignments. I'd say that pretty much makes them "people" in game terms and for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I've heard it asserted that some creatures in D&D are essentially, irredeemably evil. That is not true.

It depends on what you mean by 'essentially'.

A Red Dragon who is not Chaotic Evil is 'either unique or a rare exception' (MM p305). What is 'rare'? Don't know, but the 3E MM in the same paragraph instead had 'either unique or a one-in-a-million exception'.

Are there even a million red dragons out there? Would you ever bet your life that this might be the one red dragon in a million that might possibly be redeemable?

-Hyp.

 

[haakon1]

I like D&D to be heroic and I find placing the PCs in a situation they have to perhaps kill kids and babies is very not heroic.

My paladin would kill them since they do register as evil. As a DM I would have no issues with that take.

Roger roger.

 

[Hypersmurf]

We caught up to them right before they killed the last child. We battled and killed all but the high priestess who surrendered. In the battle tow of our party were slain. I wanted to kill the last drow right then and there but the DM told be that I would be violating my code. So we tied the cleric up gagged her and off we went back on the seven day journey.

"So you need to sacrifice this last child as part of your ritual to unleash hell, and if you don't kill her as part of the ritual, it can't happen?"

"Sorry, little one. As long as you're alive, you're a danger to the entire world. But don't worry. At least this way, your soul will be safe for all eternity..."

-Hyp.

 

[Seeten]

It depends on what you mean by 'essentially'.

A Red Dragon who is not Chaotic Evil is 'either unique or a rare exception' (MM p305). What is 'rare'? Don't know, but the 3E MM in the same paragraph instead had 'either unique or a one-in-a-million exception'.

Are there even a million red dragons out there? Would you ever bet your life that this might be the one red dragon in a million that might possibly be redeemable?

-Hyp.

If the DM is one of these closet Paladin haters, you can bet it is, AND further, that it was just trying to redeem its evil ways now, thats why you just lost your powerz, fighter with no feats and high charisma!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

What's your definition of "people"? Trolls have a base Int of 6, can take class levels, and have variable alignments. I'd say that pretty much makes them "people" in game terms and for the purposes of this discussion.

Indeed, one of the river trolls in this adventure (and in the complimentary thread from the point of view of my paladin player) was an adept, albeit only a first level one.

It's easy to get cocky about the blind scrag until she casts obscuring mist, has the blind-fighting feat and starts making with the 10' reach. Only a happy coincidence by another player moments before in another end of the cave saved the group from a TPK.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If the DM is one of these closet Paladin haters, you can bet it is, AND further, that it was just trying to redeem its evil ways now, thats why you just lost your powerz, fighter with no feats and high charisma!

Paladins don't fit nicely into closets. That's where I keep my kender.

 

[Relique du Madde]

I say have the paladin ask for divine guidence and if his diety said "kill the tadpoles" problem solved.

 

[Korgoth]

Interesting discussion. I don't think the issue of "evil babies" is especially relevant. Saint Augustine specifically mentions that babies are tainted by evil - remember "original sin"? You could argue that from a Christian perspective, human babies should ping as slightly evil (selfish). Would a Paladin kill them? Certainly Christianity has forbidden infanticide since day one.

The question isn't whether something is evil, the question is whether it is a proximate threat. An evil (selfish) peasant or an evil (lustful) prince don't get murdered by the Paladin when he walks past them. Racial alignment and predisposition to evil and the rest of it don't make any difference: if it's coming at you to kill you (or somebody else) then you waste it. If it is harmless, even if that's only because it doesn't have its adult teeth yet, then there's no reason to kill it.

The logic "it will grow up to be evil" doesn't hold, either. Even if that's a true prediction (and there's no way to know) it's ultimately beside the point: "good" doesn't mean wiping out evil, it means doing what is decent in any given situation. If a Paladin's job was to kill everything capable of doing evil he'd have to blow up the planet.

The whole Paladin as "baby killer" issue really just supports one conclusion: "evil" is a red herring on the issue of whether to kill. You kill things that are threatening you or someone else with violence. You don't kill anything else.

 

[Seeten]

Interesting discussion. I don't think the issue of "evil babies" is especially relevant. Saint Augustine specifically mentions that babies are tainted by evil - remember "original sin"? You could argue that from a Christian perspective, human babies should ping as slightly evil (selfish). Would a Paladin kill them? Certainly Christianity has forbidden infanticide since day one.

The question isn't whether something is evil, the question is whether it is a proximate threat. An evil (selfish) peasant or an evil (lustful) prince don't get murdered by the Paladin when he walks past them. Racial alignment and predisposition to evil and the rest of it don't make any difference: if it's coming at you to kill you (or somebody else) then you waste it. If it is harmless, even if that's only because it doesn't have its adult teeth yet, then there's no reason to kill it.

The logic "it will grow up to be evil" doesn't hold, either. Even if that's a true prediction (and there's no way to know) it's ultimately beside the point: "good" doesn't mean wiping out evil, it means doing what is decent in any given situation. If a Paladin's job was to kill everything capable of doing evil he'd have to blow up the planet.

The whole Paladin as "baby killer" issue really just supports one conclusion: "evil" is a red herring on the issue of whether to kill. You kill things that are threatening you or someone else with violence. You don't kill anything else.

Whose conscience is it on when the troll grows up big and strong and rapes, then eats someones wife? Someones mother? Butchers an entire town?

All preventable by a swift moment of action.