The "orc baby" paladin problem

[Relique du Madde]

Whose conscience is it on when the troll grows up big and strong and rapes, then eats someones wife? Someones mother? Butchers an entire town?

All preventable by a swift moment of action.

But on the flip side, there are things known as alignment abnormalities which do often appear at the whims of a tyrantical gm. How are we to know that in that barrel there wasn't one lawful good troll-ling which would have been murdered by its "brothers"/"sisters" or by the adventuring party considering that the paladin only tried to detect evil (and not good)?

 

[thedungeondelver]

Trolls! Evil! Kill them!

 

[Korgoth]

Whose conscience is it on when the troll grows up big and strong and rapes, then eats someones wife? Someones mother? Butchers an entire town?

All preventable by a swift moment of action.

The troll's.

 

[Tetujin]

Nothing is born innately evil. It grows up and learns to be evil. So those tads should not have registered being evil.
Dragolen

Pardon me if someone already brought up this point, but the thing is that in D&D, things *are* born innately evil, it's called the [Evil] Subtype. This isn't just "Usually Evil" or even "Always Evil", their very *existence* is evil.

 

[Elf Witch]

"So you need to sacrifice this last child as part of your ritual to unleash hell, and if you don't kill her as part of the ritual, it can't happen?"

"Sorry, little one. As long as you're alive, you're a danger to the entire world. But don't worry. At least this way, your soul will be safe for all eternity..."

-Hyp.

Or you kill the evil drow cleric thus preventing the end of the world.

If I am remembering correctly the blood of unsullied innocent elvez had to be spilled while the moon amd a star were in alignment that happened only once every 175 years and lasted for 13 days.

The drow had to finish the ritual in this time period or the ritual was useless.

 

[Delta]

I lean towards the "kill them like a nest of hornets" understanding here. I think there's pretty good precedent in D&D for that being the basic construction of the game. I really wouldn't want to focus on the issue or make encounters that intentionally highlight it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Pardon me if someone already brought up this point, but the thing is that in D&D, things *are* born innately evil, it's called the [Evil] Subtype. This isn't just "Usually Evil" or even "Always Evil", their very *existence* is evil.

The description in the MM specifically states that 'Always Evil' creatures are born with an evil alignment; on the other hand, it merely says that most creatures with the [Evil] subtype also have an evil alignment. 'Born evil' is more closely associated with 'Always Evil' than with the [Evil] subtype.

Also, the 'Usually' text indicates that this alignment may be the result of cultural bias, or a legacy of their origin. The example it gives are the elves have inherited their CG alignment from their patron, Corellon Larethian. To me, that suggests that for an elf, the CG alignment is Nature, not Nurture; if you took a hundred elf babies and raised them separately with no connection to elf culture at all, you'd still expect a majority of them to turn out CG.

The MM entry for the Troll states 'Usually CE', but gives no indication as to whether this is a result of cultural influence or a legacy of their origin. If the DM elects to make it the latter in his own campaign world, then I would expect most troll babies to have the CE alignment. Whether or not they have had time to absorb any troll culture would be irrelevant, since the alignment relates to the species' origin, not its culture.

-Hyp.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But on the flip side, there are things known as alignment abnormalities which do often appear at the whims of a tyrantical gm. How are we to know that in that barrel there wasn't one lawful good troll-ling which would have been murdered by its "brothers"/"sisters" or by the adventuring party considering that the paladin only tried to detect evil (and not good)?

One scragpole per barrel. These suckers were big.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Hugo the Magnificent, Archmage Extraordinaire, has devoted his entire life to the service of others. With his natural affinity for magic, he could have ruled the world... but instead, he turned his talents to ensuring peace and prosperity for the common folk of the kingdom. He is wracked with assorted pains and ailments - the results of sacrificing his own life energies on numerous occasions when protecting the kingdom from Dark Forces - but he'd do it again in an instant, because With Great Power Comes etc etc.

Then one day he's having a quiet drink in a tavern, and he overhears a conversation at the next table - a man has lost his entire savings in a card game, playing beyond his means in an effort to impress his mistress. "What'll you tell your wife?" someone else asks. "I won't," the man says. "I'll go see old Hugo - spin him some line about needing money to cure some orphans of a horrible disease, or something. He's supposed to be a pushover, from what I hear."

Hugo reviews his life, and realises that people take him for granted. He's sacrificed everything for them, and they look on him as a piggy-bank. Well, no more!

This reminds me of the Blackadder Christmas Carol:

[Christmas morning. Ebenezer wakes up.]
Baldrick: [from outside the room] Mr Blackadder! [enters, holding a sock] Looks like Father Christmas just forgot about me this year.

Blackadder: [stands] Oh, dear me... [takes sock, and begins reaching inside it] But don't be too unhappy; because, if you look very carefully, there's something in this stocking from me...

Baldrick: Oh!

Blackadder: In fact, it's something I made for you...

Baldrick: Well, that's the kind of prezzie that shows the most love! What have you made for me, Mr B?

Blackadder: I've made you... [takes his hand out] ...a fist.

Baldrick: A fist?

Blackadder: Yes — it's for hitting [punches Baldrick in the face]... and what's wonderful about it is that you can use it again [punch!] and again [punch!] and again [punch!]. Well, what do you say...?

Baldrick: [weakly] Thank you, Mr B...

Blackadder: Think nothing of it, Baldrick -- I, after all, think nothing of you [punch!].


[Hanging onto the window, calling through, is the young boy.]
Boy: Oi! Gitface! How about a penny for the season?

Blackadder: Hark! Do I hear the voice of a darling little cherub at the window?

[Blackadder walks to the window and opens it, causing the boy to fall down with a scream.]
Blackadder: [looks outside, then shuts the window] No — I must have imagined it.


[The doorbell rings.]
Baldrick: Shall I get that, sir?

Blackadder: No, Baldrick — leave them out in the snow until I get dressed. I'll only be about forty minutes.


Baldrick: Mr. B! Where's the milk of human kindness?

Ebenezer Blackadder: It's gone off, Baldrick. It stinks.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Oh and if a creatures detects as Evil, it is the paladin's god-given duty (literally) to smite them. Otherwise, what's the point? It's not Detect Evil Outsider or Smite Evil Outsider after all. If you as a DM don't like it, then house rule the paladin to your heart's content. Or ban them. Whatever.

Also, don't bother arguing that it is Chaotic to Smite a creature just because they're Evil. Or that a paladin can't Smite Evil unless they've broken a law or something. The paladin's God has already judged the creature and rendered a sentence. I believe that if a paladin refuses to Smite Evil and do his God's will then that will be cause to lose paladinhood. If a creature who Detects as Evil is protected by an evil society and/or evil laws, the paladin will find some way to Smite the Evil even if that means breaking evil laws. Paladins belief that Divine Law always trumps secular law.

You the DM don't have to like paladins or include them in your campaign. Heck you don't have to use the alignment system either. But if you're going to allow paladins in your game, then you should allow them to do their job.

Personally I think Detect Evil and Smite Evil in a 'morally grey world' is absolutely absurd. Gygax designed D&D with a B&W morality. If you're going to play 'morally grey world' then ban paladins, clerics, and especially aligned spells. Nothing wrong in doing that.

Trust me: It is the height of "unfun" to play a paladin in a 'morally grey world.'