D&D 5E The paladin conundrum

[n0nym]

Hi everyone,

It's my first thread here so I guess a quick introduction is in order. I'm currently DMing a Dark Sun Campaign that started with the events of the 2nd edition scenarios Freedom and Road to Urik. We're up to the second part of the campaign (PCs are lvl7) and having a blast.

Roleplay-wise, everything has been fun so far. 5th edition gives everyone its chance to shine socially I think and even though some gameplay mechanics have been a problem (Stealthing in combat with Cunning Action), we all like the game system a lot more than 3rd edition or Pathfinder.

However, one thing is starting to bother the PCs : our Oath of Vengeance Paladin.

In my campaign, Templars (the loyal servants of the BBEGs in Dark Sun) are either Paladins or Clerics. One of the PCs chose to play a spy from Balic (an ennemy city) and represented him with the Paladin class.

But be it in combat or out of combat, the Paladin now outshines everyone in the game. He deals tons of damage with Smite and Vow of enmity (short rest), tanks attacks and spells alike with his high AC and Saving Throws, cures poisons, diseases, hit points and can stand his own in any kind of social situation thanks to his high Charisma.

Everything the others can do, he does it better.

One of my problems is that I'm running fewer encounters than recommanded (2 or 3 a day at most). Usually, he's got enough Smites to deal quickly with any serious threat while the others mob up the weaker ennemies. And the problem will only grow as he gains levels, since I'm not planning on running more encounters per day and he will get more and more spell slots to burn.

The other problem lies in his Lay on hands ability which basically negates any kind of "poison game". Think of Joeffrey's wedding in Game of Thrones. Imagine one of his kingsguard simply walking in and curing him with a touch. That would have been anti-climatic.

I'm looking for suggestions on how to allow the other players to shine, either by nerfing the Paladin abilities or by creating situations where he will have to stand back to give the others their time under the spotlights.

Thanks for reading !

PS : the other players are a lvl7 Arcane Trickster (psionic instead of magic), lvl7 Hunter Ranger (the one that suffers the most from this situation) and lvl7/1 Elemental monk / Warlock.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Welcome to ENWorld. Have some introductory XP.

I don't think you need to nerf a character in order to provide opportunities for others to shine. There are areas where the paladin isn't the best at everything. Exploration and stealth in particular will often make the paladin the weakest link. If the party is only experiencing 2-3 encounters per day then they might need to be a bit tougher than typical encounters.

Part of the paladin can do everything issue comes from the designers desire to make sure the class has the iconic abilities of the old AD&D paladin. The problem with that is that the old paladin was a hard class to qualify for with the AD&D rules as written. One could not simply choose to play a paladin-you needed very lucky stat rolls. Thus, the class was kind of rare in play. Now that anyone can just choose the class they are still powerful, but not so rare.

 

[ad_hoc]

PS : the other players are a lvl7 Arcane Trickster (psionic instead of magic), lvl7 Hunter Ranger (the one that suffers the most from this situation) and lvl7/1 Elemental monk / Warlock.

The party make up might be the problem.

Arcane Tricksters are specialized. They need a campaign that will let them shine. That involves both stealth and intrigue challenges.

I believe Elemental Monks are the worst designed sub-class in the game. They are weak, and using their abilities means you can't use monk abilities. I would start by reducing the ki cost of all elemental monk abilities by 1 across the board. I would also not limit them to concentration.

I would think the hunter ranger shines in exploration and survival. If they lack in combat I would give the player a tutorial in how to best use their spells. Maybe allow them to change the spells they chose.

 

[Minigiant]

Welcome, here's some XP.

Your party is the problem really.

Arcane Tricksters and Rangers in general are more noncombat focused.

Rogues in general favor longer days and ATs prefer average length days to use their spells as they don't get blasty ones.

Hunter rangers deal good damage but over time so short days are bad for them.

Elemental monks are better on short days provided they rest often. Without that they are horrible. Expecially when multiclassed.

Paladins are balanced for normal days. Short days make them powerful. Long days make them stink.

Overall you have to increase the novaing ability of the other party members via custom spells or house rules on spellcasting.

 

[n0nym]

Thanks for your advice guys, keep them coming !

I think I'll try to play with the idea of Stealth and / or put him in the wilderness without the Ranger being around to show the other players that he can't do everything.

As for house rules, allowing the Monk to use Fist of Unbroken Air as an Attack instead of an Action might also help this particular player.

 

[Wik]

First off - well done for Dark Sun! It is, by far, my favourite setting, and I can't wait to run a 5e DS game eventually.

Second - there are all sorts of fun ways to hinder the paladin. You could have enemy templars come after him... say, a couple of Gulgite Headhunters (Judagas? I can't recall the name off the top of my head). Or things of the like.

A real good option, though, is this - a vengeance paladin is great at focusing damage on one foe. So, why not make sure that your fight has a mob of several foes? If your party is swarmed by, say, dozens of tari or other weak critters with sneak attack, the paladin's smite isn't gonna be great... but every other character in your party can take multiple actions to hurt foes.

The ranger can hunters mark a new foe each turn, and kill a tari a go. The arcane trickster should have a few spells that will turn the tides of battle, and can match the paladin in damage output (killing one a round, same as the paladin, really). And your monk will truly shine.

Finally... why not just try and up the number of encounters a day? Just because it's dark sun, doesn't mean you can't throw dungeons at the PCs every now and again.

 

[Bawylie]

Time and distance will help you.

1st increase the size of each playable space. A paladin that wants to smite must first close the distance between their self and their target. You can increase distance by increasing the amount of difficult and blocking terrain that you use, along with different height levels.

With that distance, have the enemies begin with some form of artillery.

Employ strategic and opportunistic timing. Even if Joffrey's kings guard could cure poison with a touch, they have to be around to do so. If they're too far away, they can't helm him regardless of their abilities.

So stuck your paladin in a hole and shoot him. That hole could be a sticky enemy that holds him in place a round or two, it could be an area that's difficult to get through, or an area that's just so big he's got to run 2 rounds to get there.

Design your space to give yourself 1 or two rounds before the party can get on their A game.

Second, you know their A game. So look for ways to move them off that and into plan B. Often something as simple as a net or two can wreck a fighter-type's scrimmage line. Or hidden enemies going after the party's artillery can make the tanking moot - you're already behind their line.

No need to monkey with the classes themselves. Just pay attention to and use your playable space. As DM, it's up to you to set the stage. Use it to your advantage.

 

[PnPgamer]

Thanks for your advice guys, keep them coming !

I think I'll try to play with the idea of Stealth and / or put him in the wilderness without the Ranger being around to show the other players that he can't do everything.

As for house rules, allowing the Monk to use Fist of Unbroken Air as an Attack instead of an Action might also help this particular player.

why do I get the feeling that then he rolls his 20's, and nothing gained.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Welcome to the boards! Paladins are straight up overpowered, and have some broken design behind them, particularly in their aura of protection ability which was designed for an entirely different edition. Fifth edition supposedly has bounded accuracy, which includes saves, and the paladin just craps all over that by adding an extra +2 - 5 to everyone's saves. They also have way too much offense for a what should be a defense based class.

This is compounded by 2 of the PC's being elemental monks and a ranger, which are fairly weak classes.

Since you, like me, dont want to run MMO style trash encounters, I'd suggest the following nerfs.

1) Aura of Protection only grants proficiency. This preserves bounded accuracy.
2) Remove the smite ability entirely. If you want to smite, spend a spell. The ability to blow spells after you see the roll is currently breaking my combats.
3) Change diseases/poisons to be require extra uses of cleansing touch, spread to someone when they try and cure it, or just be immune to his cleansing touch.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The ranger can hunters mark a new foe each turn, and kill a tari a go.

Vengeance paladins also get this spell.