D&D 5E The paladin conundrum

[Valador]

To counter PC with high AC, I use Rust Monsters at appropriate situations. I will use curses/banes to wither down a PC's fighting prowess as well. Introduce curse on holy-looking item. Paralyze him with magic for a few turns if needed.

Enemies that work effectively in a group can also be used against a lone PC. For my current campaign, I am introducing a Vengeance Paladin NPC to be rescued. The captors are Hobgoblins with their Warlord. Hobgoblins have martial advantage and leadership, particularly good for taking down single entity like a lone Paladin with a few hobs surrounding it.

The trick is not too be too obvious such that the paladin PC feels you are biased and deliberately throwing stuff to bring him down to his knees.

So basically it's DM vs. the player and the trick is to not appear you're being biased, when in fact you are? Really? So let's penalize someone due to the class they picked to make everyone else feel better? The paladin isn't even the top melee class in this edition.

I'm all for presenting the other players hand tailored challenges and situations to let their classes shine, but I'm not for witch hunting someone based on their class. More out of combat situations, more monsters of lower levels to offset the Paladins single target damage spikes while allowing "weaker" characters to contribute, and more frequent encounters to drain resources.

Not some kinda "10 kobolds all run past you to attack the paladin using pack tactics with their +3 paladin slaying swords and by the way, all of your armor was cursed and now you have 10 AC" mess...

 

[GreenKarl]

Paladins are great but really only in melee, with fewer combats per day and against just a few foes. If you add in a bunch of low-level dudes, have more at ranged (2-3 rounds to get to them) and multiple combats before a long rest you will see a BIG change.

 

[hecetv]

Well, it's not per-se. It's only an issue because he's better at killing stuff than everyone, and also better (or as good) at doing stuff that should be their specialty. The ranger player is particularly frustrated because the paladin has mostly the same spells, but also gets to convert them to deal crazy damage while the ranger has Primeval Awareness, which everyone finds ridiculously underpowered.

But there's more : my players like challenging fights. Unfortunately, if I make fights challenging for the AC21 killing machine paladin, it becomes deadly for everyone else. And if I make it challenging for the others, it's a cakewalk. That's why I was looking for ways to entertain everybody, not just one player. And I think the advice I received here are spot on.

I never really thought about how smite unbalanced the ranger/paladin spell cross over.

Everything else has pretty much been addressed but it does suck when people feel underpowered compared to their party mates. Plus it is hard to make a ranger shine by putting them in the wilderness without kind of making everything hinge on them keeping the party alive, which is kind of boring in and of itself.

I guess it would feel like the ranger has to protect the paladin from hoards and meanwhile the paladin has to crush any large enemies, and crushing large enemies is more impressive. What's your ranger like? Maybe you can come up with a very niche magic item or something to help him out. Like the paladin gets a +1 sword, the ranger gets... Idk what he has. A sword that poisons enemies or something. You know some way to give him a mechanical advantage that will put him in a useful niche without favoring him.

Maybe he can make a pact with a special familiar to give him more scouty abilities? Second set of eyes and all that. Like a pseudo dragon or something.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Everything the others can do, he does it better.

One of two things is happening. Either

1.) Your game is perfectly optimized for Oath of Vengeance Paladins, making them ideal, or
2.) The other PCs are built somewhat ineffectively and could benefit from some charop, if they care about such things.

It's hard to say which one it is, but in my experience, multiclassed Paladin/Sorcerers are just one of five or six flavors of awesomesauce PCs in 5E--and single-class paladins aren't even at that level of awesome.

 

[Arcshot]

Metal armor/weapons are supposed to be rare in the Dark Sun setting. (Unless that's changed; it's been a while since I looked at it.) Scarcity of good armor and weapons should be a limiting factor for the Paladin to begin with -- no rust monster needed.

The paladin relies on Heavy Armor and Heavy Weapons more than the other classes mentioned in this thread (although they can smite with anything) so enforcing campaign rules on available equipment (and breakage!) should hinder the paladin more than the other classes.

I must admit that I know little of Dark Sun (I hope to try it out some day!). On breakage, I have recently introduced reduction in AC (at times) instead of more dmg if an enemy rolls critical. This generates a cause for maintenance of armour and an excuse for PCs to spend their gold on.

 

[Arcshot]

So basically it's DM vs. the player and the trick is to not appear you're being biased, when in fact you are? Really? So let's penalize someone due to the class they picked to make everyone else feel better? The paladin isn't even the top melee class in this edition.

I'm all for presenting the other players hand tailored challenges and situations to let their classes shine, but I'm not for witch hunting someone based on their class. More out of combat situations, more monsters of lower levels to offset the Paladins single target damage spikes while allowing "weaker" characters to contribute, and more frequent encounters to drain resources.

Not some kinda "10 kobolds all run past you to attack the paladin using pack tactics with their +3 paladin slaying swords and by the way, all of your armor was cursed and now you have 10 AC" mess...

I was basically giving direct suggestions to OP in regards to his questions in nerfing and giving limelight to other characters. Personally I don't believe this is a case of taking a character out of a game in favour of others for good. Rules are the same but games are different. If a DM feels attentions need to be paid to other characters to tune his game in a direction he thinks will benefit the pacing of characters as a whole at times, he has the right to do so. I plan to give a specific character a curse item, doesn't mean I am biased against him. I will reward him in other situations and bestow diseases to another PC in future and so on. Just giving different challenges to specific PCs at different point of the game. I agree with you. No witchhunt. No 10 kobolds running past you to attack paladin.

 

[manduck]

I currently play a vengeance paladin and yeah, they can be powerful. Then again, every class can be powerful. So I'll share a few weaknesses I've noticed, some of which others here have already mentioned.

-Ranged attacks. Put a few archers or spell casters out there that can deal some damage. Put a few goons in front of them to hold the line and keep the paladin back. Paladins don't do well with ranged. You can also throw in a few obstacles, like a cliff or tower wall to climb or a barricade to jump over.
-Skirmishers. If you have an enemy that can move in, strike, and move out it will cause some problems.
-Hordes. Paladins don't have much to deal with hordes and what they do have comes in late in the game.
-Traps. Surprise! Paladin's do get save bonuses thanks to their auras. Though that still isn't a guarantee that each save will be amazing. A paladin's aura may only give them a dex save in the ball park of the rest of the group, for example. Where that aura is really dangerous is when it gives a bonus to the rest of the team and adds onto their amazing saves. For example, put a monk and a paladin next to each other and that monk is pretty safe from any save. Plus, crowding around the paladin is dangerous for AOE spells and traps. They may make some saves and perhaps take half damage but it still chips away at them.
-Resistances. Does your paladin use a great sword? It may not work so well against that pudding or slime. Some monsters can grab weapons or limbs and hold on, like the infamous gelatinous cube. Plus the variety is a lot of fun for everyone.

The vengeance paladin is designed to be amazing against one big bad guy. He's the knight that slays the dragon or the vampire hunter that kills the vampire lord. So when that boss monster shows up, it's the paladin's time to shine. Leading up to that though can be tough for the paladin. They're a great class but not invincible. I hope this helps. Plus these things provide a challenge for the whole party. So the paladin won't feel singled out and they all have to work together.

 

[Blue]

The paladin is a strong class, and it sounds like the environment (few encounters per day) is one that favors any class with daily resources like the paladin or most casters.

If the paladin has few encounters, and they have a melee / easily closed component, it can ull out it's smites and really shine at damage. Especially if it has multiple attacks per round it can smite with.

Sounds like mixing it up on your side fo the screen could help. More encounters per day, more ranged / heavy terrain could be helpful. Attackers in second story windows on both sides of an alley, "horse" archers, lots of things to go against them. Spells to limit their mobility.

(I'm not saying "you're running it wrong", just pointing out different classes are stronger/weaker when going off the default assumptions. The Arcane Trickster has this to a lesser extent as well.)

Also, heavy armor has to have some penalties if they are out between cities. Do they do that, and does he travel fully armored? Also comes back to terrain - quicksand-like for a heavily armored character without much dex is going to be a place he needs help.

Paladins get a lot but they also have an oath. Put him in places where that's a factor. Lots of good RP and pathos can come out of that.

If he's picked skills to be a face, let him use them. If not, then charisma may help but not overwhelm others who are getting a sizable proficiency bonus. If he did, that's an opportunity cost for skills he didn't pick - what do the others have that can give them a spotlight? Plus rmeber that race can make a big deal with interactions, as ways to occasionally focus RP scenes on the non-Chr characters.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Two words - Rust Monster

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Two words - Rust Monster

Pretty sure they all went extinct on Athas, what with the lack of metal heh. The armor is likely Mekillot or Braxat "plate" made of chitin/hide.

It's not JUST the AC that is the problem, its the whole package of the vengeance paladin - hunter's mark, overpowered save aura, good offense, great defense. His one "weakness", ranged/flying attackers, is also a weakness for the monk and rogue. And really he's one up on them with a summoned mount to counter mobility issues... one that you dont even have to feed if you dont want to.