The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

Wow, half a page of bitching back and forth about moral relativism, and nobody seems to even have noticed the Original Poster has actually jumped in to give us more information!

Given the fact that the paladin never actually established the halfling was anything more than a hired flunky with no knowledge of the plot beyond "keep so-and-so busy for a few minutes", and given the fact that there was no sense of urgency and no "preventing future atrocities" defense...

... I'd say, yes the paladin did overstep his bounds. And Hieroneous would not be looking too kindly upon this act.
 

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Okay, here's my feeble attempt to get the thread back on-topic. A couple of general comments, first.

This doesn't have anything to do with how practical the paladin's code is in the real world, or whether good and evil are absolute or relative. This is D&D, and the paladin's code is practical because the DM sets things up so that it is (there should always be a way around the problem that allows him to follow his code), and there is an absolute (though occasionally poorly defined) standard of good and evil.

To me, the essence of a Lawful character is that he adheres to a code of conduct that is imposed on him by a group he belongs to, whether it is his country, his faith, or his culture. He doesn't come up with his own ideas of what is acceptable and unacceptable (that would be Chaotic). As a Lawful character, a paladin could choose to follow his country's laws, or his faith's tenets, and so on. It doesn't mean he can't break them. It would be a chaotic act, but it wouldn't turn him chaotic immediately.

Finally, to the paladin in question. Someone quoted Vimes early in this thread. I'll now quote Carrot, possibly the most paladin-like of Terry Pratchett's Discworld characters: "Personal isn't the same as important." I believe the paladin acted rashly and unwisely. If it goes against one of the principles he is committed to uphold as a Lawful character, then it was a chaotic act. Given the elaborated scenario, the paladin was probably frustrated that he couldn't get any information out of the obviously-lying halfling, and assumed he was more of a threat than he seemed. Surely an ordinary stooge would have broken down and confessed everything he knew when confronted by a high-charisma paladin in full wrath mode, no?

I wouldn't take away the paladin's powers, but I'd find some in-game way to warn him about the dangers of acting rashly and unwisely in future, and then threaten his wife and child again and again to see if this will push him to increasingly evil acts :]. Of course, the ultimate cheesy ending would be for him to go on a murderous rampage after someone told him his wife was killed and become a blackguard. Then, the next campaign could be about his twin children (his wife lost the will to live and died in childbirth) with him as an evil NPC. ;)
 

jdrakeh said:
Depends, really - what god does the Paladin serve? If it isn't one that condones vengeance, I'd strip him of his Paladin status as the act would likely be an affront to his god. Sure, it took place in a moment of passion, but one of the Paladin's duties (typically) is to remain true to the tenets of his faith in such circumstances - that's what seperates him from the normal guy on the street. If murder runs contrary to the established tenets of his god's will, then I'd strip him of his status and not restore it until he serves pennance for his crime (be that pennance a quest, punishment, or otherwise) and wins favor with his god again.

If it's Cuthbert, for example, he's probably up for sainthood now.
 

Dr. Awkward said:
jdrakeh said:
Depends, really - what god does the Paladin serve? If it isn't one that condones vengeance, I'd strip him of his Paladin status as the act would likely be an affront to his god.
If it's Cuthbert, for example, he's probably up for sainthood now.
See above. It's a paladin of Hieroneous, god of Chivalry, Honor, Justice, Valor, and all that good stuff...
 

Galfridus said:
Yikes, quite a few responses since lunch. I've kept some details vague because this is a continuing adventure, and some because it's a long-running game and providing full context is pretty much impossible. That said, here's some more grist for the mill:

The paladin is awakened (by a servant) and told someone has a message for him. He summons another PC to watch over his wife and heads downstairs, where he meets the halfling who begins delaying him.

At the same time, someone sneaks in to his wife's bedroom (yes, past the PC who is watching) and "does something" to her. At the time, what it was is not clear, but she was alive and not obviously harmed. The PC drives the "attacker" off (in essence, they teleport away).

Another PC, a cleric, roused by the struggle, bursts into the room, sees that the wife is alive but confused, and gets a quick summary of what happened. He runs downstairs.

Meanwhile, the paladin has grown suspicious and begins questioning the halfling, then grabs him. When the halfling refuses to give answers (who sent you, what are you doing here), he gets a little rough. The halfling tells some obvious lies, and the paladin gets a little rougher.

Then the PC cleric arrives and announces that someone has assaulted the paladin's wife. After a few more questions and non-answers, the player says "I break his neck." I verify that his intent is to kill. Since the halfling is a) pinned and b) already at low HP, I say he is negative HP and dying. (I had foregone rolling damage for the various attacks during the interrogation in order to maintain the flow of the scene.) That's where the session ended.

Game time elapsed between the assault and the end of the session was a minute or so.

(Of course, since there is a cleric standing right there with a Heal spell prepared, the halfling is likely to live.)

===

I didn't intend to have the halfling die and was not trying to bait the paladin into anything.

It's hard to describe how a particular campaign uses alignments; I would say that this one falls more toward Good and Evil as moral absolutes, but that means different things to different people.

To simplify things rather a lot: the Paladin was not legally justified to execute the halfling, as no lives were in danger; he did not (and does not) know if the halfling is evil; he has good and sufficient reason to presume that the halfling was involved; he knew his wife was attacked but still alive.

I consider this chaotic as the paladin disregarded laws he had sworn to uphold for no reason other than personal vengeance. The evil part depends a bit more on the nature of the person involved, and the paladin's failure to discover further details about that nature. That does seem a bit weaker than the chaotic bit, on further reflection.

All posters subsequent to this post, must have missed it. It appears now, after clarification, that the following is true:

1) The wife is not in immediate danger from the halfling (and perhaps from the assaulter).

2) The halfling was not a direct participant in the assault, but was merely a decoy.

3) The halfling has proven to be lying/hemming/hawing (was he afraid, evil, bribed, etc. - we may never know).

4) The halfling was not proven to be evil (see above - note: I said proven, I didn't say he wasn't).

5) The halfling was subdued and in essence, helpless.

6) The paladin did not prove the involvement of the halfling (although it is a bit obvious).

7) The paladin not only acted a bit reckless (in my campaign, I would say against code), but also {EDIT: MAY HAVE} killed a potential source of information out of anger and frustration (I would have thought that finding out who the perpetrators were would be important).

So, if the halfling had turned out to be intimidated into being a decoy (the bad guy may have had his family hostage) then not only has the paladin acted rashly, but he has also {EDIT: MAY HAVE} killed an innocent (and in need of help) individual in cold blood.

I could go on, but I think that Galfridus' latest post sheds a lot of light on the situation. I guess that doesn't solve the "other" debate that this thread has spawned... ;)
 
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Galfridus said:
Yikes, quite a few responses since lunch. I've kept some details vague because this is a continuing adventure, and some because it's a long-running game and providing full context is pretty much impossible. That said, here's some more grist for the mill:

:eek: Okay now that I've read that...

I would strip him of his powers immediately.
 

After reading all of this, two or three warnings, a deleted post, and a few attempts to bring a true face to all this crazed matter.

Something else is still missing.

The player in question, was responding to the scene, as any home owner, husband and expected father would react.

He was home. Not on a mission, not slaying some brute monster. He was home.

Awaken, and asking a trusted friend to lookover his spouse, indicates to me, that there is a personal history as said by the original starter of this theme, too long to get into. He leaves a trusted friend to protect his wife.

Now by the door or by some small interior room, where the messenger starts to get all vaguee, on what the message is.

That now irks the owner of the home, on something is now suspicious, plus keep in mind, this man was awaken from his sleep. Time unknown.

While this is going on, the PC friend, trusted to the nines, fails to see the danger, and trouble starts.

Somehow, the wife becomes alert, and screams a cry. Being pregnant, the danger tickles the sixth sense and knowing too, that being a paladin's wife, does have its dangers also.

Downstairs, the father to be in question, is quiet irrate, ang gets rough, after the questions asked, are getting no where. To his satifacation.

Upstairs, near a adjoining room, a second PC, a cleric, jumps out of the bed, as fast he can get his underpants on, rushes there in time, to be told...that the attempt met with failure, from the intruder. The Cleric ascertains as much they as could, that everything is alirght, leaves to give the husband of the wife, the good news.

Meanwhile downstairs, the roughness goes to a body movement restriction, the distress and growing angry is ever present in the human male dealing with the said suppose to be messenger halfing. At some point, either by noise or vocal conversation, he learns of the assualt done to his spouse, who is carrying the future of the family line.

The husband, the father to a soon newborn child, and man of the house(if this so), is now truly insense and much anger seeps pass his own reasoning of control.

Said Cleric reaches the room, and confirms, to the much angry man, who is holding in restrainted, the halpless halfing. It was the worst news to confirm his own suspicions.

He declares death, for the indirect assualt and deception done to him, and he is angry at himself for falling for it and it left his wife and soon to be mother, with babe, unprotected.

His venting cannot go to the escaped other intruder, it can't go his friend, who failed in their duty to safeguard her, first of all, on the first bout.

What is the old saying, "Wrong place, wrong time"....the entire scene was rich with emotional pulls, and every piece said here, just flare the persona's worse fears.

That whoever organized it, wanted to show that the man of the house, the husband, the father to be, and his dear friends, cannot protect the one person, in that family.

His wife, and the babe who is in her womb.

And you said, this man was chaotic??

Please take a look here, and view carefully...all of this is seen from the character's perpective, and not one mention of him, being a paladin.

No God, no SRD, no RAW, nothing else but the emotion rollcaster that went through that man should be the only thing that should matter.

And what matter to that man, that husband, that father to be...someone trepassed on his home, his 'castle', someone else was the trickster, used to detain, distract the man, the lord of the manor? To hurt his charges, his family...please

Folks, what has transpose there in that house, was all legit...and nothing, nothing short of a total confession may not save that halfing.

In the old days, when someone directly or indirectly partakes on a venture to bring harm to someone's else family, and you are caught in the act, guess what, you share what the punishment is.

When it comes to a wife, your lover, your friend, and expecting...to give birth to a child from your blessed union. And someone wants to harm them?

Run or die...

And live with consquences thereafter...

Oh, one more thing, that is what you get, when you wake up a person from a good sleep. :) :)

Galfridus said:
Yikes, quite a few responses since lunch. I've kept some details vague because this is a continuing adventure, and some because it's a long-running game and providing full context is pretty much impossible. That said, here's some more grist for the mill:

The paladin is awakened (by a servant) and told someone has a message for him. He summons another PC to watch over his wife and heads downstairs, where he meets the halfling who begins delaying him.

At the same time, someone sneaks in to his wife's bedroom (yes, past the PC who is watching) and "does something" to her. At the time, what it was is not clear, but she was alive and not obviously harmed. The PC drives the "attacker" off (in essence, they teleport away).

Another PC, a cleric, roused by the struggle, bursts into the room, sees that the wife is alive but confused, and gets a quick summary of what happened. He runs downstairs.

Meanwhile, the paladin has grown suspicious and begins questioning the halfling, then grabs him. When the halfling refuses to give answers (who sent you, what are you doing here), he gets a little rough. The halfling tells some obvious lies, and the paladin gets a little rougher.

Then the PC cleric arrives and announces that someone has assaulted the paladin's wife. After a few more questions and non-answers, the player says "I break his neck." I verify that his intent is to kill. Since the halfling is a) pinned and b) already at low HP, I say he is negative HP and dying. (I had foregone rolling damage for the various attacks during the interrogation in order to maintain the flow of the scene.) That's where the session ended.

Game time elapsed between the assault and the end of the session was a minute or so.

(Of course, since there is a cleric standing right there with a Heal spell prepared, the halfling is likely to live.)

===

I didn't intend to have the halfling die and was not trying to bait the paladin into anything.

It's hard to describe how a particular campaign uses alignments; I would say that this one falls more toward Good and Evil as moral absolutes, but that means different things to different people.

To simplify things rather a lot: the Paladin was not legally justified to execute the halfling, as no lives were in danger; he did not (and does not) know if the halfling is evil; he has good and sufficient reason to presume that the halfling was involved; he knew his wife was attacked but still alive.

I consider this chaotic as the paladin disregarded laws he had sworn to uphold for no reason other than personal vengeance. The evil part depends a bit more on the nature of the person involved, and the paladin's failure to discover further details about that nature. That does seem a bit weaker than the chaotic bit, on further reflection.
 
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Hi Everyone,
Based on Galfridus's most recent post, it would seem that the Paladin will be (and should be) spending a little time on the sidelines - but nothing that an atonement won't fix. While a certain level of rashness and stupidity can be expected (and even encouraged by capricious party members) when playing a paladin, this act was also dishonourable - to the point of an act of murder.

The "model" paladin most likely would have, questioned the halfling further, found out what precisely occured to his wife and then and only then act upon the information garnered. A paladin who only thinks with his sword generally makes for a poor paladin (but an interesting character). Acting on what "seems" to have occurred is the classic way for a paladin to fall. Compared to some, I most probably have a hard line when it comes to paladins. To each their own.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Truth Seeker said:
What is the old saying, "Wrong place, wrong time"....

If the paladin had found out that the halfling was a voluntary participant in said assault, then this may be the case. The fact remains that the paladin did not wait to find out if the halfling was being forced against his will. So, regardless of the halfling's true motivation, the paladin was not very thorough in finding out. I realize that speak with dead can still be used, but what happens if the halfling's corpse says that he was forced against his will ("oops, sorry I lost my temper and killed you in a blind rage")?

{EDIT: WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT AM I THINKING?} "Wrong place, wrong time" never applies to a good situation (if it was a good situation, it wouldn't be called that - it'd be called "The hero was in the right place, at the right time").
 
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