The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[jdrakeh]

In particular, if you are both good and lawful, you have no respect for a law [that] is unfair or capricious."

Which relates to this situation how? One could argue that the Paldin sees due process and a trial as unjust, but it wouldn't be a very compelling agument - the only possible way he could make the argument is that since a loved one was personally harmed, the laws that he usually fights to uplhold need not apply to him. Which is a crappy argument as, again, it makes him a vigilante by definition.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

While I'm still comfortable with my initial pro-power wacking response, I'd say it would be nice to the player to just take the intergame time to say, "So, you know this is n violation of your character's paladin status, right?" The player may well be fine with that, or not like it but decide his character would still do it, but there's a chance that he hadn't realy considered how his character would behave as a paladin as well as a husband.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lawful, does imply some measure of actual following of laws, as stated in the SRD "obedience to authority".

Actually, I believe the quote you're looking for is "respect for legitimate authority." Respect != Obedience. And not all authority is legitimate.

 

[coyote6]

the halfling's life is forfeit for the role he played in the attack on the paladin's wife,

What "attack", though? Someone snuck past the guard, was in the room with her, and "did something" -- but she was alive, and appeared unharmed. The someone then teleported away.

So far, the "assault" could've been practically anything, including beneficial things. (A really elaborate way to deliver a baby shower gift?) The wife is "apparently unharmed", though the cleric didn't seem to mention that, nor that the manner of the assault is (apparently) unknown. (Maybe the cleric is a servant of the God of Garbled Messages. If prankster kids in masks threw snowballs at his door, would the cleric report an attempted home invasion by fiends from the Abyss?)

Did the paladin detect evil? It wasn't mentioned that he did; "halfling radiating strong aura of evil" would put a whole different spin on the neck snapping.

(Heck, the friendly cleric could've been a doppleganger -- he hires some halfling who is a firm believer in the Crown/Church/Gods/Food, but not a very good liar; then gives him a fake story about how They need his help; the halfling needs to get the paladin tp his front door for a few minutes, for some very good but but very secret reason, and the halfling is *not* to relate the story to the paladin -- the King/archbishop/gods/Master Chef demands it, and the fate of the kingdom/righteousness/the world/dinner is at stake! So, the paladin gets delayed by a halfling that's clearly hiding something, and can't tell a life to save his neck. Then, the doppleganger walks up and says, "Hey, they just attacked your wife. That little halfling was in on it." And, without a hint of confirmation, or even clarification on what "attacked your wife" means (they threw a pie at her and missed? Death attacked her with a poisoned vorpal sword?), the paladin snaps the halfling's neck. Oops.)

 

[Truth Seeker]

Well, I will look at it this way...it was roleplayed, roleplayed from a much angry and hurt man, whose pride was wounded. For all the protections and possible strengths of arms that was in that house...someone got to his wife.

I do not look at the situation from a paladin view, that was the DM and writer of this thread that marked it so.

What happened there, he puts himself in a corner, cause the scene became too powerful, emotional charged. Was the player asked, after the game was over, was he okay with it?

As you can see from my next to latest post...it was viewed from an individual who was heavily distraught.

Don't deal with the paladin, deal with the man, deal with the frightened husband.

And also, no one, one here, and even me, cannot predict on what the outcome should be, if the outline was for the "paladin" was detain and question the halfing, who was already (the man) was upset in several degrees.

Sorry, but all of this, this scene belongs to the DM and the player only. What comes out of it, will be again, should be dealt with the forementioned two.

What happened here, a scene got too big too handle, and the player was channeling, pretty well, the emotions of a person whose home was broken into, whose love one was threaten, and everyone here, almost one here keeps forgetting that character is upset, is livid, that the attempt was done in his home, on his own grounds.

And aftermath should be what?

He gets punished, cause he didn't check his anger right away, after all that happened, in that house.

You know what, I will go to the player's side, cause...one reason, I don't see a paladin, religion, or god being involved in that situation.

What I see from a roleplayed point of view, is a person who was wounded mentally and spiritually.

To resolve this, besides the character being sidelined as mentioned, roleplay that scene out...cause the DM has a hit a nerve with his player, on a very touchy situation, that involved family.

You indirectly trigger a response, and it was 'thrown' back at you, in roleplay, well roleplay back, and when finished...sit down and talk about it. No book, no guideline or rule or advise is going to help in this situation.

From this, this is how, you can become a better DM and he, a better player.

Learn from the experience.

And that is truth of the matter.

If the paladin had found out that the halfling was a voluntary participant in said assault, then this may be the case. The fact remains that the paladin did not wait to find out if the halfling was being forced against his will. So, regardless of the halfling's true motivation, the paladin was not very thorough in finding out. I realize that speak with dead can still be used, but what happens if the halfling's corpse says that he was forced against his will ("oops, sorry I lost my temper and killed you in a blind rage")?

{EDIT: WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT AM I THINKING?} "Wrong place, wrong time" never applies to a good situation (if it was a good situation, it wouldn't be called that - it'd be called "The hero was in the right place, at the right time").

 

[Andor]

Ok. Resolution idea. We all know that Paladins who commit a chotic act or evil act suffer varies consequences, yes?

Nowhere in the rules does it say that this happens immediately, or in a direct intervention by god method. SO: If it does not screw up your stated workings for Paladins, have an Inquisitor show up. Someone with the authority to judge the character and the god granted power to strip him of his paladinhood or send him on an atonement quest.

Everything is fine for now. He retains all his powers and may not even realize there was a problem (although he should.) But a week from now there is a knock on the door and there stands the Inquisitor. Basically what follows in a courts-martial over the incident. Play it out however you want, but the Paladin should be quaking in his boots. Let the other characters act as witnesses if you want to keep them involved, or just the Paladin if you want to keep it short.

Even if he gets off without penalty, the players should sure as HELL get the message that he was right on the edge there.

And as a roleplaying bonus sometime later the Paladin may have to pay his debt forward when he recieves a vision and now has to go and act as inquisitor for some other poor shlub.

 

[Acid_crash]

This kind of thread just re-emphasizes my dislike of alignments. IF they did away with alignments, and just wrote in a Paladin Code of Honor, or something, in the class description, of what actions fall in the Paladin Code, then many arguments wouldn't happen.

There are many times the Paladin class is confusing. I guess it's assumed that in D&D the worlds are typically black and white, there is real evil and real good and not much in between. Evil is evil, and that is what the Paladin Smites. If he detects evil, and gets evil, and kills evil, then he is following the tenets of the Paladin as I understand it. To me, that's how the rules of the game lay it out.

The rules don't go into Behavioral Alignments. To me, and this is why I don't like them, Alignments cause more arguments than anything else in the game. Here we have a Paladin that committed an act of killing a halfling he assumes is behind, or part of, the attack on his pregnant wife. Was he right by killing the halfling? You bet he is, as I see it according to the rules I am given. The halfling was evil, therefore smiting this evil falls within the Paladin Code of Behavior.

Trying to justify his actions, was he passionate, enraged, etc. just complicates the system because this game system does NOT have rules for this. Passions are not part of the system. To try and put them into a game system in which they are not designed for is just to cause headaches.

A lot of people say alignments are just guidelines, but so many times people complain that a person is NOT acting his alignment because he did ONE thing that goes against it.

I hate alignments, worst game mechanic next to THAC0 ever designed.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

See above. It's a paladin of Hieroneous, god of Chivalry, Honor, Justice, Valor, and all that good stuff...

Ohhh...well then, he's screwed. Cuthbert is a "letter of the law" type, but Hieroneous sometimes lets stuff like fairness and compassion get in the way of a good smiting.

Ok. Resolution idea. We all know that Paladins who commit a chotic act or evil act suffer varies consequences, yes?

Not chaotic, just evil. Read the paladin's code again. No evil acts, but you can perform chaotic acts, just so long as your alignment stays lawful. So don't make a habit of starting anarchist uprisings or anything.

 

[LostSoul]

If it's just flavor, why have in-game effects for breaking the code?
3rd edition when out of its way (for good or bad) to get rid of "flavor" and to put that in the DM's and player's hands.
The paladin's code of ethics IS in the class description, therefor it IS part of the class.

Exactly my point. Why have in-game effects for breaking the code? It's just going to cause problems.

It may be part of the class, but that just means that the paladin was poorly designed (in my opinion).

 

[LostSoul]

Except that if they don't agree to something before hand the default is to play the class as written, not to play it without the code. If someone wants to play a paladin without a code, or wth a very different code from the default set out, they should bring that up with the DM and negotiate it prior to playing the character. You are suggesting that somehow the default should be to ignore the class as written. Even if your idea of what the paladin should be was superior, its a wholly impractical stance.

I'm suggesting that the class as written is an example of poor design, and should be ignored if you want to have a good game without talking about the code beforehand.