The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[LostSoul]

And most importantly, as this thread brought up, to a true paladin his wife will always come second. Even if he loves her* he must love his code more. This has a huge potential for dramatic roleplay (on both parts if the wife is also a PC) but you combine a code with no room for personal feelings, the love of another fragile mortal, and a very dangerous job and you are cruising for a tragedy. The only choice is which path the tragedy takes.

I think the paladin's code removes the potential for dramatic roleplay, unless you are really out there digging for it. Precisely because the Paladin has to choose between: being a Paladin, upholding the code, and becoming an unplayable character.

Now if the Paladin's abilities switched to something else after he fell, that would promote dramatic roleplaying. (Like Blackguard.) But that's not part of the class.

 

[Demmero]

Upstairs, near a adjoining room, a second PC, a cleric, jumps out of the bed, as fast he can get his underpants on, rushes there in time, to be told...that the attempt met with failure, from the intruder. The Cleric ascertains as much they as could, that everything is alirght, leaves to give the husband of the wife, the good news.

Meanwhile downstairs, the roughness goes to a body movement restriction, the distress and growing angry is ever present in the human male dealing with the said suppose to be messenger halfing. At some point, either by noise or vocal conversation, he learns of the assualt done to his spouse, who is carrying the future of the family line.

The husband, the father to a soon newborn child, and man of the house(if this so), is now truly insense and much anger seeps pass his own reasoning of control.

Said Cleric reaches the room, and confirms, to the much angry man, who is holding in restrainted, the halpless halfing. It was the worst news to confirm his own suspicions.

He declares death, for the indirect assualt and deception done to him, and he is angry at himself for falling for it and it left his wife and soon to be mother, with babe, unprotected.

Wow. Where to start? This is looking so Annakin Skywalker to me.....

The paladin in question has gone beyond all normal reasoning, apparently, so he should be allowed to do whatever he wants, or, more precisely, whatever his rage drives him to. I disagree. I mean, look at this example! There's the cleric friend finding the wife apparently unharmed, the intruders gone...and then bringing this "good news" to the paladin downstairs. Yet when the cleric relates these good tidings to the paladin, the aggrieved father takes the words as "the worst news to confirm his own suspicions." Huh? Where's his mind at? His wife's apparently fine; the intruders are gone. A 'worst news" scenario has the wife dead or kidnapped.

The paladin in this case isn't thinking about the welfare of his family at this point; it's become a pride issue. How dare someone enter my home and try to harm my family!!?? I don't think that behavior's outrageously out-of-line for someone who's just experienced a home invasion...but it seems kind of off for a paladin.

His venting cannot go to the escaped other intruder, it can't go his friend, who failed in their duty to safeguard her, first of all, on the first bout.

You're wrong. He could loose his "righteous anger" on the friend who failed him...but then his anger probably be misplaced (and there would likely be serious consequences, both from his friend and his friend's church). He could (and should, IMHO) vent on the escaped intruders who actually assaulted his wife...but they're not at hand, so there's no IMMEDIATE venting. The subdued halfling is the easy target.,,and possibly the wrong one as well.

In my mind, the bad guys are cowards for striking at the paladin's wife and unborn child instead of at the paladin himself; and the paladin's not much better, killing the stooge/distraction to "get back at" the attackers.

And those who says it's a paladin's duty to mete out punishment to the wicked, punishment doesn't have to take the form of killing, especially killing someone who's already been rendered non-threatening.

Please take a look here, and view carefully...all of this is seen from the character's perpective, and not one mention of him, being a paladin.

Sorry, no can do. That's part of the equation, and that's why so many posters are against the aggrieved father's actions. Were he a Fighter, a Rogue, a Barbarian, etc....the reaction would be more understandable. Hell, a Wizard or Sorcerer would probably LOVE the opportunity to kill an intruder by snapping his neck. Snapping the neck of a subdued foe (and outside of combat) doesn't seem the least bit paladin-like to me.

And what matter to that man, that husband, that father to be...someone trepassed on his home, his 'castle', someone else was the trickster, used to detain, distract the man, the lord of the manor? To hurt his charges, his family...please

Folks, what has transpose there in that house, was all legit...and nothing, nothing short of a total confession may not save that halfing.

In the old days, when someone directly or indirectly partakes on a venture to bring harm to someone's else family, and you are caught in the act, guess what, you share what the punishment is.

When it comes to a wife, your lover, your friend, and expecting...to give birth to a child from your blessed union. And someone wants to harm them?

Run or die...

And live with consquences thereafter...

I'm not buying this. The original poster said this happened in a civilized city, supposedly with its own set of laws and punishments. The paladin decides to take "justice" into his own hands, ignoring the legitimate authority of the city. This in itself sounds like it's against the paladin's code to me, but others may disagree. But look on the other side of the coin: let's say this incident happened to Joe the Candlemaker and not the paladin. Would his explanation of the halfling with his neck snapped for being a part of an attack on his apparently-unharmed wife fly when the local constable shows up? Maybe others would disagree, but I think he'd have a hell of a lot more explaining to do than the paladin in the same circumstances? Is that fair or just? Aren't paladins supposed to have a thing about injustice?

For me, there are two reasons why I think the paladin in question has broken the code:

1) The manner of dispensing "justice." Snapping the necks of subdued prisoners in the middle of a civilized, lawful city seems selfish and wicked; and, more importantly:

2) The paladin didn't take a few moments to Detect Evil on the halfling. If you choose to execute an 'evildoer,' doesn't it make sense to make sure that he's evil beforehand, when you have that ability, usable at will? The paladin's failure to do so show that he acted in a self-serving, reckless manner.

As others have pointed out, the halfling may have been just a hired stooge. Or maybe he's another victim, and threatening a person's family is the BBEG's MO. Isn't it the least bit possible that the halfling was told that his family would be harmed if he didn't do this one "small favor" for the BBEG? Kind of unlikely, I admit, but the paladin had the ability to find out--all in the matter of a few seconds--if the halfling was evil or not, and he didn't. that reeks to me of choosing personal vengeance over justice.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

I think the paladin's code removes the potential for dramatic roleplay, unless you are really out there digging for it. Precisely because the Paladin has to choose between: being a Paladin, upholding the code, and becoming an unplayable character.

Now if the Paladin's abilities switched to something else after he fell, that would promote dramatic roleplaying. (Like Blackguard.) But that's not part of the class.

It removes the potential for dramatic roleplay? I would say that the code would enhance the potential for dramatic roleplay — it's a built-in hook or tension, something to struggle against and contend with. The choices a paladin should be making as far as whether or not to uphold his code, when to uphold it, why updholding it is important (or not imporant), could all lead to some very fruitful roleplaying. Same with a paladin breaking the code and having to atone.

Nick

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Danny, many of your examples refer to the laws of men. The paladin must adhere to the laws of his god.

You can even find exhortations about slaying night-stalkers in religious texts.

Maybe others would disagree, but I think he'd have a hell of a lot more explaining to do than the paladin in the same circumstances? Is that fair or just?

Nope- like I stated before, a home invader in the night was a valid target for instant justice in many cultures, a standard that is only somewhat softened today.

We just had a case here in Texas where the homeowner shot a guy coming into his window.

In the head.

No charges, just lots of TV interviews.

As others have pointed out, the halfling may have been just a hired stooge. Or maybe he's another victim, and threatening a person's family is the BBEG's MO. Isn't it the least bit possible that the halfling was told that his family would be harmed if he didn't do this one "small favor" for the BBEG?

Possible? Yes- but he didn't talk.

Exculpatory? Depends on what, EXACTLY, his subsequent actions were and how the jurisdiction handles things. There are places where you can get the death penalty for what he did, regardless of duress.

Had it been the Paladin who was the intruder operating under duress, he'd lose his powers surely as night follows day.

 

[Numion]

The OP's already said that the paladin didn't know if the halfling was evil, and, as others have pointed out, there's the chance that the halfling was coerced or somesuch.

Well there is that possibility, yes. There's also the possibility that he was under compulsion spell, or that the Paladins wife was really the evil one, or that the Paladin itself was under a spell that makes him think that the Halfling is doing evil while he's really the Paladins faiths high priest

The Paladin shouldn't let any of those possibilities hinder his resolve to stop evil. If he sees someone doing evil he's to stop and punish them first play mind games with endless possibilities second. "If it looks like it's doing evil, it probably is".

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think the paladin's code removes the potential for dramatic roleplay, unless you are really out there digging for it. Precisely because the Paladin has to choose between: being a Paladin, upholding the code, and becoming an unplayable character.

Now if the Paladin's abilities switched to something else after he fell, that would promote dramatic roleplaying. (Like Blackguard.) But that's not part of the class.

Well we had a lot of dramatic roleplaying since the player wasn't all that worried about losing the cool powers.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Well there is that possibility, yes. There's also the possibility that he was under compulsion spell, or that the Paladins wife was really the evil one, or that the Paladin itself was under a spell that makes him think that the Halfling is doing evil while he's really the Paladins faiths high priest

Right.

The Paladin shouldn't let any of those possibilities hinder his resolve to stop evil. If he sees someone doing evil he's to stop and punish them first play mind games with endless possibilities second. "If it looks like it's doing evil, it probably is".

I don't know about this — this is veering too closely into a "kill them all, let the gods sort it out" philosophy. Finding out if the halfling's actually evil before killing him is a little bit more than a mind game, especially if he's bound and helpless. I don't know. I'm going to have to go with the other side of this coin. I think the paladin, who should be held to a higher standard than most folks, had the opportunity to investigate a slight bit more, and he wasted it, veered into pure wrath. I think it's a great response, in that it could set off an entire series of scenarios, but I do think that it wasn't very paladin-like. I also think I'm rambling a bit, though...

Nick

 

[LostSoul]

It removes the potential for dramatic roleplay? I would say that the code would enhance the potential for dramatic roleplay — it's a built-in hook or tension, something to struggle against and contend with. The choices a paladin should be making as far as whether or not to uphold his code, when to uphold it, why updholding it is important (or not imporant), could all lead to some very fruitful roleplaying. Same with a paladin breaking the code and having to atone.

My belief stems from the fact that the Paladin must make the Lawful Good choice in every single situation. If he does not, he becomes an unplayable character.

That does not leave the player with much choice.

At best, you will get players who are willing to slog through a few sessions with an ineffective character (basically a d10 Warrior NPC class) if the temptation is great enough. But I'd rather see situations presented all the time where the Paladin has to consider whether or not to do the Lawful Good thing or not.

Ideally, this would mean a Paladin class that recieved other abilities when he Falls. Using these abilities should make it harder and harder to act Lawful Good, and cause the Paladin to spiral into Blackguard. (I can't think of any that would do this.)

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Well we had a lot of dramatic roleplaying since the player wasn't all that worried about losing the cool powers.

Flexor said this far better than I did. That was my issue with the implications of the previous post — that dramatic roleplaying somehow was tied into game mechanics.

 

[LostSoul]

Well we had a lot of dramatic roleplaying since the player wasn't all that worried about losing the cool powers.

That's awesome. I think it's hard to do, based on how D&D works (with its emphasis on combat and the nature of the CR/XP system).