General - The Paladin killed someone...what to do?
I'm looking for advice / opinions on a paladin-related issue.
The paladin (married, with a pregnant wife) was called down to the street in the middle of the night by a messenger: a halfling who said he had a message but then hemmed and hawed about what it was -- then tried to scamper off. The paladin grabbed him -- and then learned that just after he left his room, someone had assaulted his wife. The paladin asked a couple more questions, at which point it became clear that the halfling was involved in the assault. The paladin then attempted to kill the halfling (and may have succeeded; I ended the session at that point, as it was a good cliffhanger).
Obviously this is not on the list of Approved Paladin Activities. What would you do to the paladin in question?
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Andor said:
What are the Paladins legal powers in this setting? Is he a full knight with the High Justice and the Low? An agent of the Church? If so the simple fact that this is an assault on his wife could make this a church matter and once again within his perview. Is he in his own country or a foreign one and which set of laws is primary? Modern jurisdictional disputes are childs play compared to the kind of stuff that crops up under the feudal system.
The paladin (who worships Hieroneous) is effectively a noble of the kingdom he is in (he is actually a noble from another kingdom who has been granted noble status and has accepted associated responsibilities). He has the legal powers of a nobleman -- but he is in the capital city of a kingdom which is (simplifying here of course) Lawful Good. He does not have the right to order execution as a punishment (as opposed to killing in self-defense or to protect others). He is in the royal capital, so there are higher nobles who would be expected to pass judgment and to whom he would be expected to defer in any other than the most immediately pressing circumstances.
Andor said:
What does the relevant legal system say is the appropriate punishment for accessory to assault? What are the guidelines the Paladins order has for dealing with evil prisoners when you can't afford to be slowed down by them?
Legal guidelines would involve incarceration followed by trial, with imprisonment as the likely penalty. The situation was not one where the paladin was slowed down (other people were just arriving on the scene); his full attention was directed at the prisoner.
Andor said:
It's not at all clear yet if the paladin has actually done something wrong.
In my opinion, the act was excessive, with elements of chaotic and evil behavior. Chaotic: abandoning the laws one has sworn to uphold for personal vengeance. Evil: unnecessary death. (The intent to kill was clearly stated, no question there.) Passion due to the personal nature of the attack is both a mitigating factor (clouded judgment) and not an excuse -- if you can't uphold the law for yourself, what kind of example do you set?
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Yikes, quite a few responses since lunch. I've kept some details vague because this is a continuing adventure, and some because it's a long-running game and providing full context is pretty much impossible. That said, here's some more grist for the mill:
The paladin is awakened (by a servant) and told someone has a message for him. He summons another PC to watch over his wife and heads downstairs, where he meets the halfling who begins delaying him.
At the same time, someone sneaks in to his wife's bedroom (yes, past the PC who is watching) and "does something" to her. At the time, what it was is not clear, but she was alive and not obviously harmed. The PC drives the "attacker" off (in essence, they teleport away).
Another PC, a cleric, roused by the struggle, bursts into the room, sees that the wife is alive but confused, and gets a quick summary of what happened. He runs downstairs.
Meanwhile, the paladin has grown suspicious and begins questioning the halfling, then grabs him. When the halfling refuses to give answers (who sent you, what are you doing here), he gets a little rough. The halfling tells some obvious lies, and the paladin gets a little rougher.
Then the PC cleric arrives and announces that someone has assaulted the paladin's wife. After a few more questions and non-answers, the player says "I break his neck." I verify that his intent is to kill. Since the halfling is a) pinned and b) already at low HP, I say he is negative HP and dying. (I had foregone rolling damage for the various attacks during the interrogation in order to maintain the flow of the scene.) That's where the session ended.
Game time elapsed between the assault and the end of the session was a minute or so.
(Of course, since there is a cleric standing right there with a Heal spell prepared, the halfling is likely to live.)
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I didn't intend to have the halfling die and was not trying to bait the paladin into anything.
It's hard to describe how a particular campaign uses alignments; I would say that this one falls more toward Good and Evil as moral absolutes, but that means different things to different people.
To simplify things rather a lot: the Paladin was not legally justified to execute the halfling, as no lives were in danger; he did not (and does not) know if the halfling is evil; he has good and sufficient reason to presume that the halfling was involved; he knew his wife was attacked but still alive.
I consider this chaotic as the paladin disregarded laws he had sworn to uphold for no reason other than personal vengeance. The evil part depends a bit more on the nature of the person involved, and the paladin's failure to discover further details about that nature. That does seem a bit weaker than the chaotic bit, on further reflection.
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I'm not the biggest fan of alignments, but this game was set up to be as close to "by the book D&D" as possible (I was new to the area, did not know any gamers, and wanted the campaign to be "common ground"). That said, the game has been running 5 years, so some shades of grey are inevitable.
ThoughtBubble said:
Does this player have a history of 'shaky' behavior or 'unpaldinishness'?
The player is an excellent roleplayer and a good sport; however, the paladin has definitely exhibited borderline chaotic (not evil) behavior in the past. This will figure into What Happens Next.
ThoughtBubble said:
Is this a shades of grey campaign, or is it angled more towards killing the evil denziens of the dungeon?
It's a campaign where Good and Evil have more or less objective definitions (e.g., slavery = evil), but the campaign has gone on long enough that some greyness has seeped in. Evil people do not see themselves as good, although they may justify their actions using other criteria.
ThoughtBubble said:
Is your player thick skinned and able to deal with losing his powers fairly well? Would he take it badly?
He would probably take it well, but this character has also had a lot to deal with (much not his fault). I will be talking to the player to get a better idea of where he stands on this. Enjoyment of the game is paramount, and while I must remain true to the world, I don't want to ruin the game for anyone.
ThoughtBubble said:
Have you talked to your player about it? Does he feel that he deserves to lose his powers?
I haven't yet but I will -- this only happened two days ago and I wanted to give him a bit of time.
My concern is that the player's initial comments were to the effect that he knew he was going outside the bounds of the paladin's code, but he had made the decision to do that when his family was involved. However, this was in the heat of the moment, so I am not sure if that was really his thought process.
ThoughtBubble said:
With regards to your situation, I have to ask: Did you have any plans of sacrificing his wife, turning his unborn child into an unholy monster, and generally forcing the paladin between choosing between his family and the safety of the world?
No. This was not a "follow the paladin's code or the world suffers" scene. He may well have to make that choice at some point, but not this time.
ThoughtBubble said:
I just have to ask, because I've read a lot of paladin threads. On a more serious note, do you trust this player? How does he feel about the situation?
I trust the player. I don't know how he currently feels about the situation, as I haven't talked to him since the night of the session. I will be speaking with him this evening.
ThoughtBubble said:
And, after reading this, I have just one thing to say. If I do get a chance to play the paladin character I have in mind, he's going to be a loner orphan with no friends. Because, really, it seems like having friends or family as a paladin is just asking to be slapped with power-drain.
There is an element of that in paladins. I think that paladins are a fairly masochistic class choice, but that can make them uniquely interesting to play.
It's impossible for a paladin to figure out the motivations of all evildoers -- and even a paladin has to balance upholding the law vs. doing what is good. However, in this particular instance, the need to follow the law was perhaps stronger than normal (i.e., they were in the middle of a "good" city rather than fighting for their lives in a dungeon). It seems to me that the chaotic element is stronger than the evil element of the act. Interestingly, I had forgotten that the book paladin code is not so strict about chaotic acts, which gives me something to think about.
ThoughtBubble said:
By the way, I would still like to hear an answer to Wulf's original question. "What did you expect to happen?"
I took Wulf's question as rhetorical -- I rarely expect a particular outcome from any roleplaying scene. In a more narrow sense: at the time, during the scene, I did not expect the paladin to attempt to kill the halfling. If I had been guessing, I would have expected him to beat him up, express anger, and question him. I don't consider what the paladin did to be out of character, though it may have serious consequences for the character. I was a bit surprised at his actions, to be sure, and thought that posting the situation would provide new perspectives and inspirations for what to do -- which it definitely has!
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Demmero said:
What about the player of the cleric and his PC? I've been wondering what faith he belongs to and how he'd react to the paladin's brand of justice.
The cleric is a rough and tumble priest of Kord; not sure what his reaction will be but I'm thinking utter condemnation is not high on the list.
In my campaign, a paladin's Detect Evil requires a standard action to activate and concentration to maintain; just like the spell. It is established in my game that just because someone is evil doesn't mean they are automatically deserving of death, but in this particular case, it would certainly have added to the case against the halfling (were he to detect as evil, that is -- at present his alignment is unknown to the PCs and unstated here).
Upon further conversation, the player felt that the PC's actions were in character, though not necessarily appropriate for a paladin. He felt the act was moderately evil and chaotic, and said that his motive was anger and not so much vengeance. He did not think he should lose his powers over it.
), but it is food for thought...
