The Perform skill, WTF?

[Hypersmurf]

The annoying thing for me is that I have to guess which method my publishers believe it is supposed to be used.

Attach a little tutorial pointing them at the stat blocks of Titans and Satyrs to everything you submit

-Hyp.

 

[hobbes]

Another possibility would be to approach the Bardic-ness of the Perform skills as special abilities. Some ideas off the top of my head...

1) Possibly an additional number of skill points at each level (above the amount given in the PHB) to be used strictly for Perform skills

2) Have the bard's total Perform skill points apply to all Perform checks (theoretically how the system works now), but only allow them to take add one Performance type per level (so the skill ranks wouldn't apply to 'dance' until you actually took the dance skill)

Any other ideas?

 

[Coreyartus]

Oh, come on guys--can anyone say that the Bard as a class is threatening? How often do you actually USE the perform skill? This haggling over whether the Perform skill lets you use a Harp better than a Harmonica... Yeah, I can unequivocally say that learning one instrument makes it exponentially easier to learn others to a similar degree of competence. That's what the vast majority of Music Majors have to learn: they don't just learn one instrument, they learn a whole handful, and keep learning as they go on, at a faster rate, because the more they know as a whole the better they can play each individual instrument. It's the same with acting: actors have a tendency to be better public speakers (Johnny Dep is an exception, not the norm). It's perfectly logical that a single number represents each and every genre's competence because a person who knows Tap dance will more easily learn Modern Jazz Dance, and be better at it faster.

That said, I play a Bard, and I have NEVER been in a situation where that was important. It's terribly sad, but I think I have used my perform skill...well, I guess I have NEVER used my perform skill outright to do anything but pump up an audience to get a circumstance bonus in my Gather Information skill.

Now, when you substitute your Perform skill check for a saving throw, which number would you use if you seperated all of your skill ranks into seperate performance types? Do you really think it's wise to nitpick a single skill to death, marginalizing it into uselessness? Doesn't the Bard have enough going against the class?

I dunno, I would leave it up to your DM. Don't count on WoTC to fix the problem in July--the whole class has been a study in "ambiguous rules" since it's been published, and none of the FAQ or errata have dealt with it...

--Coreyartus

 

[Hypersmurf]

2) Have the bard's total Perform skill points apply to all Perform checks (theoretically how the system works now), but only allow them to take add one Performance type per level (so the skill ranks wouldn't apply to 'dance' until you actually took the dance skill)

Actually, if you replace "level" with "rank", that's exactly how the system works now.

If you attempt a type of Performance that isn't on your list, you'd treat it as untrained.

-Hyp.

 

[reapersaurus]

this thread is a good example of people being able to argue/discuss/nitpick anything, no matter how clear, into frustration.

I feel sorry for you if you have to deal with 3rd party publishers who are unaware of how Perform works in 3E.
I don't see why they would be disconnecting their rules from 3E rules over somethingn like PERFORM.
There are a heck of a lot of other things that should probably be changed/revisited that come way before the Perform skill.

 

[dcollins]

So you ask about the in-game benefits (or lack thereof) of strengthening skills that a fighter (as an example) would never use for combat? How about what happens when he is in a local pub after the big fight, and he sweeps some saucy wench off her feet with his sassy dancing skills?

That is a rather poor example. The example that better illuminates the game-balancing problem is, assuming your "realistic in the real-world" argument is set in place (i.e., separate Perform skills per art form), the following:

A fighter has spent some of his precious skill points on Perform (dance) +4 so he can romance barmaids in an inn for roleplaying purposes. Granted that, what is the advantage to starting to spend skill points on a different art form, say Perform (singing) +1, so he can start to romance barmaids in a different, and less effective, manner?

The in-game balancing problem is not that no one wants to buy Perform. The problem is that there would never be a reason to buy multiple flavors of Perform -- hence, they may as well be packaged together, and assume D&D entertainers pick up a variety of talents. This is not, presumably, a world where M.F.A. programs exist.

 

[Coreyartus]

The in-game balancing problem is not that no one wants to buy Perform. The problem is that there would never be a reason to buy multiple flavors of Perform -- hence, they may as well be packaged together, and assume D&D entertainers pick up a variety of talents. This is not, presumably, a world where M.F.A. programs exist.

Too True! I concur. The logistics of the game mechanics probably don't match with reality, but what can you do? By making them realistic, game balance is altered for the Bard Class, requiring a whole different slew of revisions, and so on and so on...

I think we all know from experience that there are elements of the game that just aren't realistic, but we use the game mechanics anyway because an alternative would be too complicated, too time consuming, or just too much work! For example, Hit points. We know there are other, probably better ways of determining where you are hit, how badly, loss of blood, etc. But we use the system we have because it's simple and achieves it's purpose.

Suffice to say, Perform ranks are what they are. 1 talent for each rank, all equal in their effectiveness, that being the total skill points for the skill as a whole.

--Coreyartus

 

[Number47]

Does anyone, in a real game, actually bother to write down the 10 types of Perform they are proficient in? Do you ever use them all? It is a silly waste of time to keep the skill like that. It is unrealistic that people can perform all performance skill equally, I'll grant you that. But it is only as unrealistic that all fighters know all simple and martial weapons to an exact equal degree, and if they spend a feat to learn spiked chain, they know that to the same exact degree. Let's have the mechanic be that Perform is just a single skill with no need to keep track of a dozen styles, and each person can have the styles they like as part of the flavor or background of their character.

 

[Darklone]

I don't see performing as one thing per skillpoint either. But a bard with Perform 10 ranks may easily be a worse singer than someone with perform5 ranks... but he won't get as much applause in a tavern.

 

[dvvega]

The perfom skill has always been of interest to me (I love the bard). I went and read the SRD for d20 modern, and the SRD for D&D and I've come to the following conclusion ...

d20 modern uses BROAD categories. Thus when you choose Perform (Stringed) you are actually skilled in a lot of instruments but just strings.

D&D uses SPECIFIC talents, based on your rank.

The one is simple (take a category), the other is flexible (choose things you want to know). They both work fairly well as they're written as long as everyone uses the same system.

I have never 100% agreed with D&D, but I don't agree 100% with modern either.

Against d20 Modern ... I can play the guitar, however I can't play a lute or violin. I haven't tried a lute, but I guess I'll be able to transplant guitar to it.

Against D&D ... I can play most vertically held woodwinds but I've never had training in each seperate woodwind.

Another reason is that a Bard should be better than everyone at music. They've dedicated themselves to their art. So why should everyone else get to choose a heap of instruments, and a Bard gets nothing extra.

So a compromise between the two should exist. Perhaps make non-music types choose a specific instrument/art, while a Bard gets more arts (maybe based on level? or skill points spent?).