The Perform skill, WTF?

[Sixchan]

Another example, then. A wizard spends months studying ancient scrolls and researching magic in a laboratory. He reads up on arcane lore and learns to cast powerful spells. He levels up, and suddenly, he's better able to withstand sword swings than before? That makes no sense!

LOTS of things in D&D don't make any sense if you think about them too hard. The solution is not to think about them.

You never know. What if in studying all that Arcane Lore, various magical forces in the air combined and eventually gave him greater powers? But I'm sure as hell not getting dragged this way. I'm not going to get in a debate where I have to apply logic to magic.

Well, that's your campaign, and while I'm sure you're enjoying it, I don't think it's representative of most campaigns out there.

Way, way up there, I said
But of course, people are free to do it differently.

 

[Nail]

LOTS of things in D&D don't make any sense if you think about them too hard. The solution is not to think about them.

There's one fer the album.....

Also: it's likely that the high-level bard will NOT even bother to write down every instrument he knows. The system, in this case, is "simplicity over accuracy". It's just not worth the trouble for most of us to implement a more complicated system.

So, to add to Hong's wonderful aphorisms:
Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

(EDIT): Tho' in the case of th' boards, an automatic spellchecker would be nice.......

 

[DreamChaser]

A perform check determines how well you entertain, not how good you are with a guitar.

A great Bard might start playing his guitar, look around the room, see that everyone is bored with guitar, and switch to telling jokes. The Perform skill determines your overall ability to entertain by any means possible. Each type of entertainment is just for flavor.

This is, perhaps, the best post in this entire thread. It gets to the core of the situation and pulls the wackiness together.

If I were to try to simulate focused mastery in a specific instrument that would approach the scale of a contemporary virtuoso I would probably make it a Craft skill or something similar. Each instrument would be a separate craft aimed at making music (the product of the craft).

Really think about the whole idea of perform: most musical instruments require more dexterity than charisma (Stephen Helfgot--I think that's right) was certainly not a charismatic man but he was phenominal on the piano, if I were to apply a stat to singing it would probably be constitution--breath control is critical and can be exhausting to maintain. Each form of artistic expression works very differently from the others.

BUT

A great performer, once they pick them up even to the smallest degree, can use any tools that he has to wow and audience. As a teacher, I use my minor training is about a dozen forms of performance (writing, poetry, oratory, singing, jokes, etc) to keep my students' interest and help them learn.

thanks Tobold. Until you said that, I was ticked at the perform skill. Now I get it.

-DC

and ps, while historical "bards" do not look anything like what has ever existed in D&D (not even the vaunted 1e bard) the word has become conflaited with troubadour, the travelling gossips, teachers, and entertainers. Most people who use the word today are not referring to the ancient Celtic priests...nor would they recognise an example of one if they were shown it.

 

[Sixchan]

A perform check determines how well you entertain, not how good you are with a guitar.

A great Bard might start playing his guitar, look around the room, see that everyone is bored with guitar, and switch to telling jokes. The Perform skill determines your overall ability to entertain by any means possible. Each type of entertainment is just for flavor.

I more or less concur with the post above mine. It certainly is a simple and sensible way of looking at it, and were perform not more important in my campaign, I'd probably say that this is the best way of seeing it. Personally, I want a more focused perform skill, but that appears to be just me.

 

[DreamChaser]

I more or less concur with the post above mine. It certainly is a simple and sensible way of looking at it, and were perform not more important in my campaign, I'd probably say that this is the best way of seeing it. Personally, I want a more focused perform skill, but that appears to be just me.

Use the idea that I had for another skill (like a craft skill) to give the bard focus in one area and then give them a synergy or the ability to substitute one skill check for the other if they are using their specialized instrument. This way, they can be an all around entertainer and still specialize.

DC

 

[Sixchan]

Use the idea that I had for another skill (like a craft skill) to give the bard focus in one area and then give them a synergy or the ability to substitute one skill check for the other if they are using their specialized instrument. This way, they can be an all around entertainer and still specialize.

DC

The Ironic thing about this campaign is that Perform is important but there are no bards. Each player has a class and an Instrument.

But nevertheless, I like the idea of a craft skill, or perhaps making a seperate skill (since I wouldn't classify it as a craft, personally) and doing as you suggested.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's pretty hard to have Skill Focus in something you've never done before.

I disagree completely.

I would be similar to me taking Skill Focus: Craft (Weaver) when I've never done any weaving in my life.

I have no problem with that.

Skill Focus: Choose a skill, such as Move Silently. You have a special knack with that skill.

There is no prerequisite of having any ranks in the skill. You could have your Focus: Weaver. Maybe one day you actually take weaving classes.

"Are you sure you've never done this before?" the teacher asks, as you pick up the trick of the loom after seeing it demonstrated once. "That's very good for a beginner!"

I've seen people who pick certain things up better than other people, despite never having tried them before. I have no trouble considering that to be Skill Focus: Jump or Skill Focus: Tumble, for example.

-Hyp.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Like how to spell substantial?

I don't believe in proper spelling. I am the master of words; words are not the masters of me.

 

[Sixchan]

I disagree completely.



I have no problem with that.

Skill Focus: Choose a skill, such as Move Silently. You have a special knack with that skill.

There is no prerequisite of having any ranks in the skill. You could have your Focus: Weaver. Maybe one day you actually take weaving classes.

"Are you sure you've never done this before?" the teacher asks, as you pick up the trick of the loom after seeing it demonstrated once. "That's very good for a beginner!"

I've seen people who pick certain things up better than other people, despite never having tried them before. I have no trouble considering that to be Skill Focus: Jump or Skill Focus: Tumble, for example.

-Hyp.

Okay, okay, you win...this time...mwhahahaha...

 

[Coreyartus]

I think the problem that a lot of us have (and having read this thread, I see it even more) is that we care dearly for a class that seems to be more ambiguous than the others in comparison. So many of the skills and abilities that make up the heart of the Bard are so...debateable. Large holes. Everyone can interpret the rules so differently, because there isn't as much exactitude in the wording. Things seem to be contradictory because of tiny details that have been perpetuated (out of ignorance) by third party publishers (*see the posts at the top of this thread).

Having so much "grey" area in a class is frustrating, and with all the rules-lawyers out there, the class has taken-it-on-the-chin since the 3E rules came out. The Perform skill, as an example, is one of those highly debateable things that isn't used much in most adventures, and thus it's been easy to kind of ignore it as something that needs to be addresssed. The level of "abstraction" and "un-realism" is more pronounced with the Bard than most of the other classes, IMO. Have you noticed the conspicuous absence of FAQ answers and clarifications and errata about Bard and the abilities and skills they use the most? Even the supplement "Song and Silence" failed to shed much light on the class.

So when it comes to the Perform Skill's interpretation, and making sense of something that just doesn't seem to gel, it's harder than in other classes. It takes more work to figure it out than the other skills, the other classes' abilities. I can see that on this thread, and it's just sad, frustrating, and discouraging. Hopefully, the 3.5 rule revisions will address our issues.

--Coreyartus