The Perform skill, WTF?

[Hypersmurf]

WHAT? John is a better Guitar player because he plays Keyboard? Even though Simon is a whole 2 grades above John in Guitar ability?

Three things:

1. Part of John's advantage over Simon is that he's "high ability" - bigger Cha modifier. End result - even with less ranks, he has a better average result.

2. If John's put all that work into guitar, it means he's spent more than one rank in Perform. He actually has several other performance types he's capable of, but he doesn't want you to know about them, because whenever people hear he does ballet, jazz, and tap, they call him a sissy.

3. Game mechanics! Not real life! Have you noticed a first level bard could potentially know, what, 41 languages? And learn nine more every time he levelled? Not real life! Not real life!

-Hyp.

 

[Sixchan]

Three things:

1. Part of John's advantage over Simon is that he's "high ability" - bigger Cha modifier. End result - even with less ranks, he has a better average result.

2. If John's put all that work into guitar, it means he's spent more than one rank in Perform. He actually has several other performance types he's capable of, but he doesn't want you to know about them, because whenever people hear he does ballet, jazz, and tap, they call him a sissy.

3. Game mechanics! Not real life! Have you noticed a first level bard could potentially know, what, 41 languages? And learn nine more every time he levelled? Not real life! Not real life!

-Hyp.

1. Hmm...I'm not sure about this. He could just have a natural gift for Guitar. There was a guy I knew back when I was at school, first time he played a Bass Guitar was on stage at a concert, and it was AMAZING. Buuut...I wouldn't put his Charisma too high.

2. Yeah, but I would reckon that John, if he's put all that work into Guitar, should have 2 ranks in Guitar. If not more. If he's putting all that work into Guitar, why is he studying Ballet?

3. Yeah, maybe it's not real life, but still, every other skill works sensibly. You put x ranks into hide, you become a better hider.
You put one rank into Guitar. Then you level up. You put one rank into Ballet, and you become a better Guitar player? That makes no sense!

 

[Hypersmurf]

3. Yeah, maybe it's not real life, but still, every other skill works sensibly.

Like Profession: Cook - Trained Only?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. Hmm...I'm not sure about this. He could just have a natural gift for Guitar. There was a guy I knew back when I was at school, first time he played a Bass Guitar was on stage at a concert, and it was AMAZING. Buuut...I wouldn't put his Charisma too high.

That, my friend, is a good description of Skill Focus: Perform

-Hyp.

 

[Victim]

One thing to consider about perform skills is that there seem to be different types. There's the "method" subskills, like singing, dancing, guitar, etc; and then there are the "style" ones, like ballad or whatever. So maybe one character has with 2 ranks in perform has guitar and rock music as performance types, while another has guitar and flute. One guy knows 2 instruments and the other knows one, but is also an expert in a style. With DM discretion, he could he extra synergy bonuses when using them together, which the other character wouldn't have.

 

[Belen]

The Bard- a lengthy response

As the Bard is my favorite class, I have spent a lot of time thinking about perform. The RULES say that for each rank you spend on perform, you get one type of perform skill. Therefore, 10 ranks would equal ten different instruments etc. However, the person must write down each type of perform known. It is not a blanket skill and it will never cover every type of performance. Since a Bard has a limited number of skill points, it is unreasonable to ask them to spend a significant amount of them on learning different performs. That defeats the entire point of a master performer.

To those of you who bring in real world examples, like muscians that you know etc. then you are not considering a keen fact. A modern say musician is NOT a bard. They are a singer or instrumentalist, but not a performer.

Ancient Bards were entertainers and were forced to know a lot of different skills to please an audience. Ancient Bards were ONE man shows. They had to sing, act, juggle, play instruments, recite ballads, write poetry, read poetry outloud....a traveling Bard had to know many different skills. What happened if he got to a town who hated dance? Modern day examples are erroneous and have no basis when you think of ancient Bards.

Modern day people SPECIALIZE. Look at how many different engineers are out there, or doctors. Our entire society specializes, which is why things such as decent writing skills suffer. People know a lot in a specific area, but not a lot across the board. It's sad really.

Ues, a modern day Violin player would kick the tail out of a ancient Bard who played violin because that Violin player ONLY plays the violin. The Bard may play three different instruments, dance and juggle too! Of course, a specialist would win when competing in their specific area. However, a Bard is a better all-around performer. He/she could entertain with many different areas rather than excel at one.

Therefore, one performace type per rank is exactly how the ancient Bard operated. If a person wanted to excel at one or two types of perform, then they should tell the GM and the GM should apply a circumstance bonus for exceling at one or two types or performances because that Bard gave up the ability to be a general entertainer. If the Bard specializes, then the GM should also grant negatives to the Bard when that Bard finds themselves in a situation where the specialty is not in demand.

Finally, for those who still complain, then a variant rule a friend of mine uses is to grant one type of perform per Charisma modifier. This limits the Bard from choosing 20 types of perform, but gives them a bonus for high charisma. However, I still believe that this limits the concept of a general entertainer.

Dave

 

[hong]

You put one rank into Guitar. Then you level up. You put one rank into Ballet, and you become a better Guitar player? That makes no sense!

Neither does rolling up all the skills involved in running a tavern into one skill: Profession (barkeep). You learn to haggle with suppliers, keep rowdy drunks under control, balance your accounts (or maybe not), keep wine unspoiled (or maybe not), manage employees, maintain good relations with the town guard, suck up to the thieves guild, and so forth. Then you level up. You put one rank into Profession (barkeep) and all of these disparate skills get better? That makes no sense!

The level of abstraction in D&D varies wildly. In some areas, notably the ones most related to adventuring, things are highly detailed. Spot, Search and Listen are all separate skills, for instance, although it would be quite reasonable to roll them all up into a single "perception" skill. Similarly, Bluff, Gather Information and Innuendo are all separate, but you could just as reasonably lump them together as a "streetwise" skill. Then you have Craft and Profession, which are as abstract as you can get.

Perform is in the grey area in between. It's got little to do with D&D's core mission of going into dungeons and killing monsters, but it's also central to what bards are all about. For this reason, you want some level of detail to distinguish one bard from another, but you also don't want so much detail that it becomes incongruous. The current setup, where one extra rank improves your ability with all instruments or art forms uniformly, is a compromise that serves this purpose. You can have bards who are proficient with completely different instruments and so are differentiated from each other, but you also don't end up with a skill that's very fleshed out but also irrelevant.

 

[Tobold Hornblower]

A perform check determines how well you entertain, not how good you are with a guitar.

A great Bard might start playing his guitar, look around the room, see that everyone is bored with guitar, and switch to telling jokes. The Perform skill determines your overall ability to entertain by any means possible. Each type of entertainment is just for flavor.

 

[Sixchan]

Like Profession: Cook - Trained Only?

-Hyp.

So I assume by that comment that you have no other problems with point 3?

That, my friend, is a good description of Skill Focus: Perform

It's pretty hard to have Skill Focus in something you've never done before. I would be similar to me taking Skill Focus: Craft (Weaver) when I've never done any weaving in my life.

Originally posted by Victim
One thing to consider about perform skills is that there seem to be different types. There's the "method" subskills, like singing, dancing, guitar, etc; and then there are the "style" ones, like ballad or whatever. So maybe one character has with 2 ranks in perform has guitar and rock music as performance types, while another has guitar and flute. One guy knows 2 instruments and the other knows one, but is also an expert in a style. With DM discretion, he could he extra synergy bonuses when using them together, which the other character wouldn't have.

I mentioned this back in my first post. This is more or less how I did it. Someone with Perform: Guitar would then take Perform: Guitar (Classical Music) and then Perform: Guitar (Rock Music). That would be +3, but if he took Perform: Dance, when he played his guitar, he'd still be at +3.

Originally posted by BelenUmeria
Ancient Bards were entertainers and were forced to know a lot of different skills to please an audience. Ancient Bards were ONE man shows. They had to sing, act, juggle, play instruments, recite ballads, write poetry, read poetry outloud....a traveling Bard had to know many different skills. What happened if he got to a town who hated dance? Modern day examples are erroneous and have no basis when you think of ancient Bards.

I always thought that the real, historical Bards were keepers of Celtic Oral tradition, Knew thousands of poems, and played one instrument at best. I didn't think that they juggled or acted, since their training focused (AFAIK) almost exclusively on Poetry...

Originally posted by Hong
Neither does rolling up all the skills involved in running a tavern into one skill: Profession (barkeep). You learn to haggle with suppliers, keep rowdy drunks under control, balance your accounts (or maybe not), keep wine unspoiled (or maybe not), manage employees, maintain good relations with the town guard, suck up to the thieves guild, and so forth. Then you level up. You put one rank into Profession (barkeep) and all of these disparate skills get better? That makes no sense!

You're right, it doesn't, but it makes more sense than Getting better in Ballet making you better at Guitar.

The level of abstraction in D&D varies wildly. In some areas, notably the ones most related to adventuring, things are highly detailed. Spot, Search and Listen are all separate skills, for instance, although it would be quite reasonable to roll them all up into a single "perception" skill. Similarly, Bluff, Gather Information and Innuendo are all separate, but you could just as reasonably lump them together as a "streetwise" skill. Then you have Craft and Profession, which are as abstract as you can get.

Perform is in the grey area in between. It's got little to do with D&D's core mission of going into dungeons and killing monsters, but it's also central to what bards are all about. For this reason, you want some level of detail to distinguish one bard from another, but you also don't want so much detail that it becomes incongruous. The current setup, where one extra rank improves your ability with all instruments or art forms uniformly, is a compromise that serves this purpose. You can have bards who are proficient with completely different instruments and so are differentiated from each other, but you also don't end up with a skill that's very fleshed out but also irrelevant.

I know, I just think that it's the wrong level of Abstraction. But I play roleplaying intensive games usually, so Perform can often be more important than combat.

 

[hong]

You're right, it doesn't, but it makes more sense than Getting better in Ballet making you better at Guitar.

Another example, then. A wizard spends months studying ancient scrolls and researching magic in a laboratory. He reads up on arcane lore and learns to cast powerful spells. He levels up, and suddenly, he's better able to withstand sword swings than before? That makes no sense!

LOTS of things in D&D don't make any sense if you think about them too hard. The solution is not to think about them.

I know, I just think that it's the wrong level of Abstraction. But I play roleplaying intensive games usually, so Perform can often be more important than combat.

Well, that's your campaign, and while I'm sure you're enjoying it, I don't think it's representative of most campaigns out there.