The Perform skill, WTF?

[Sixchan]

Ohhh...

I always took that to mean that someone with "Perform (Dance) 6 ranks" could do, say, six different types of Dance...Or someone with "Perform: Drums 2 ranks" could do maybe a Waltz rhythm and a Rock rhythm.

 

[hammymchamham]

I don't know, it just seams weird if someone has 3 ranks of preform in say Dance, Drums and Singing, that they are as good at those 3 things. (3+charisma modifier)

 

[dcollins]

It couldn't be clearer from the core rules...

Giant, Storm: Cha 15; Perform (chant, dance, drama, harp, recorder) +7.
Harpy: Cha 15; Perform (buffoonery, chant, epic, limericks, melody, ode, storytelling) +9.
Lillend: Cha 18; Perform (any ten) +14.
Rakshasa: Cha 17; Perform (ballad, chant, drama, epic, plus any other five) +12.
Satyr: Cha 13 (and +4 racial bonus to Perform); Perform (dance, pan pipes, plus any two others) +9.
Sprite, Grig: Cha 14; Perform (dance, fiddle, melody, plus one more) +6.
Sprite, Nixie: Cha 18; Perform (dance, melody, plus any other one) +7.
Titan: Cha 18; Perform (ballad, chant, dance, epic, harp, melody, ode, plus any other sixteen) +27.

And balance-wise it's got to be that. Who would want to spend extra skill points to expand their instrument selection for no in-game benefit whatsoever?

 

[Ranger REG]

To quote from the SRD:

"Possible Perform types include ballad, buffoonery, chant, comedy, dance, drama, drums, epic, flute, harp, juggling, limericks, lute, mandolin, melody, mime, ode, pan pipes, recorder, shalm, storytelling, and trumpet. The character is capable of one form of performance per rank."

emphasis mine

Now I read this to mean that if a character puts 6 ranks into Perform, his Perform skill would read something like "Perform (drama, drums, melody, mime, ode, storytelling) 6 ranks," not something like "Perform (drums) 6 ranks." I take it to mean the former, and that's how I run it in my game. My players have read over the same thing in their PHBs and say "odd, but you seem to have it right, Steve m' lad."

So then, why is it that in the WotC splatbooks, and just about every similar third-party book I've seen, you'll see things like "Perform (dance) 6 ranks" in the prerequisites? Why not just "Perform (1 rank must be dance) 6 ranks"? Isn't that more accurate to what the rules state, instead of misleading the reader into believing that you must have 6 ranks in dance?

Hmm. They sorely need to clarify this in the revised rules. I initially thought the last statement (in bold italic) is meant for the bard class. It's easier for the bard to have one Perform skill to improve upon. For all other characters, they must keep separate Perform skill.

Then again, you must clearly designate what form of performance you've acquired for each rank of the Perform skill. If for some reasons you do not have the required form, then you simply cannot take the class or feat. For example, if you have a Perform skill rank of 1 and designate singing as your first form, and have acquired a rank, then Perform skill rank is now 2 with singing (1st form) and stringed instrument (2nd form). This would apply to all characters and not just the bard.

Until Wizards clarify this, take you pick.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: The Perform skill, WTF?

I initially thought the last statement (in bold italic) is meant for the bard class. It's easier for the bard to have one Perform skill to improve upon. For all other characters, they must keep separate Perform skill.

Buh?

Firstly, I challenge you to find anywhere in the rules that says that ranks taken in Perform result in different skill sets for bards and non-bards.

Secondly... let's say under that system I have a Rog-1 with Perform (Dance) 4, Perform (Ballad) 4, and Perform (Drums) 4. At level 2, he multiclasses into Rog-1/Brd-1.

What happens now?

-Hyp.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

A good example of how WotC doesn't maintain an internal consistency is to check out The Forgotten Realms campaign book. Just opening to a random NPC, check out the stats for Sahbuti on page 155. You'll see he has Perform (dance) +6 listed as a skill. Just dance, no mention of the other 5. The exact same thing happens in Elminster's stats, but if if you look at Storm's stats on page 139 it gives Perform (dance, sing) +16.

This latter point would indicate that WotC uses how it is stated in the SRD/PHB, but has used an unwise method of listing the skill that has lead to the misconceptions so often seen in 3rd-party products. I have a feeling that a lot of people using this skill incorrectly wouldn't be doing so if WotC would do things like (at the very least) list "Perform (dance, sing, +14 others) +16" for character stats and "Prerequisites: Perform 6+ ranks, must choose dance" for their prestige classes. Hopefully this implimentation shall be corrected.

 

[mmu1]

This latter point would indicate that WotC uses how it is stated in the SRD/PHB, but has used an unwise method of listing the skill that has lead to the misconceptions so often seen in 3rd-party products. I have a feeling that a lot of people using this skill incorrectly wouldn't be doing so if WotC would do things like (at the very least) list "Perform (dance, sing, +14 others) +16" for character stats and "Prerequisites: Perform 6+ ranks, must choose dance" for their prestige classes. Hopefully this implimentation shall be corrected.

Either they're just taking the quick and dirty way of not listing everything, or they're actually applying some common sense to the NPCs and only giving them the types of Perform that fit the character, even though technically they're entitled to several more kinds.

It'd definitely be the more sensible approach to what is otherwise a completely absurd skill.

 

[Ranger REG]

As I said, "I initially thought."

Later products have made it clear to treat Perform skill the same as Craft and Profession.

Of course, the bard will have a difficult time taking advantage of their "entertainer" specialty, considering his skill point allotment is small, and will probably limit to one or two types of Perform skills.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Later products have made it clear to treat Perform skill the same as Craft and Profession.

Later products are wrong, then

In your post above, you had it right with your singing-and-stringed-instrument example. Perform is completely different to Craft and Profession - it's almost closer to the way Speak Language is handled, only with a rank.

-Hyp.

 

[hobbes]

And balance-wise it's got to be that. Who would want to spend extra skill points to expand their instrument selection for no in-game benefit whatsoever?

Well, there's more to playing 3E D&D than just pure stats. If you are building a character around a certain archetype, you might burn skills to make that possible, even though there are no rules-specific reasons for doing so. It adds color and flavor to the character.

Just as in real life, characters have strengths and flaws that make them who they are. It is not unreasonable to have a fighter-class character who also happens to be one heck of a dancer (or singer, writer of lymricks, etc.), and a good DM can play off that to add realism and color to the world.

In my opinion, the wonderful thing about d20 is that it allows for a certain level of depth and diversity in a character. In addition, it is somewhat unrealistic to expect that a given character would have been focused his entire life on being a fighter. He may have wanted to be a bard when he was younger, or perhaps he just likes music. The point is this: a wizard who doesn't just cast spells is a more real person (for example). He has a bit of depth, a personality. In my mind, that makes him far for fun to role play than if he were max'ed out using an empirical formula to make him the best possible caster he could be at that level, throwing by the wayside anything that might make him unique or different from the next wizard.

So you ask about the in-game benefits (or lack thereof) of strengthening skills that a fighter (as an example) would never use for combat? How about what happens when he is in a local pub after the big fight, and he sweeps some saucy wench off her feet with his sassy dancing skills?

That's just an example, but I think I've made my point. Just as you as a person have depth, different interests and unique talents, so should your character. It makes him special, and more fun to play.

Of course, that's just my opinion...