D&D General The Player's Quantum Ogre: Warlock Pacts

[WanderingMystic]

The pacts and the invocations, many of which are associated with them. Would you just rename them so you can keep the mechanics the same? I don't think that would work for me. I said similar mechanics to the warlock, not identical.

So if I want to play a fiend type of sorcerer using the warlock the only thing that do not make thematic sense are pact of the blade, tome and chain. The patron works as my bloodline, the invocations work as demonic powers I gain as I get more powerful.

 

[el-remmen]

So what other classes do you consider to allow free intrusion for the GM on player agency?

I don’t think I understand your question or what my post has to do with agency.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So if I want to play a fiend type of sorcerer using the warlock the only thing that do not make thematic sense are pact of the blade, tome and chain. The patron works as my bloodline, the invocations work as demonic powers I gain as I get more powerful.

I suppose that could work, though my preference would be for a bespoke demon bloodline set of mechanics. I really dislike reskinning.

 

[Bae'zel]

Another thought:

I won't require players to engage with the character's background, species or class fluff (even if I want them to).

However, I will incentivize them to do so (extra rewards, narratively and in the game mechanics) if they DO.

A player of a warlock who actively WANTS to interact and make deals with their patron? Hells yeah. More so if they dive into the whole "Faustian" bargaining bit.

Just like how I dish out Inspiration to players who play their characters' flaws, even if they don't have to.

They don't have to do ANYTHING except respond to my DM prompts (and roll dice and know how their character works). But if they go the extra mile, I will reward them (eg "my tiefling, wary of how the locals might be suspicious or even fearful of her, dons a hood and keeps away from other people at the tavern", even if I never explicitly stated that this village was particularly prejudiced against tieflings).

 

[Seramus]

Unless and until you have enough of a conversation with someone to truly demonstrate that you aren't asking for absolute power--that you genuinely only want to add more richness to the experience, that any possible risk of power loss is exclusively meant to make the experience better, not worse--a lot of people are going to see, "So, I can mess with your character at any time, for any reason, and you just have to live with it, right?"

Trust is not automatic. It is earned. Asking up-front for "I get to treat everything you love about playing your character as my personal chew toy", even if you would never actually do that, is a really, really, really big ask.

I actually go the other way around when I'm a player. I start with trust, and have an "Everybody gets 1" mentality.

I assume the GM only wants to add more richness to the experience, and any possible risk of power loss would only happen 1 time to make the experience better. I'll bite the plot hook and trust a seemingly fishy NPC 1 time. I'll endure the dungeon full of traps 1 time. You can Gotcha! me 1 time. Etc.

If it ever happens more than 1 time, that's when my trust starts to shatter. If power loss comes up twice, I start looking at the door. If I get betrayed by a major NPC twice, my playstyle changes to distrust everyone, and that's pretty unproductive. If I run into a second dungeon full of traps, I start looking at the door because my days of flour bags and 10 foot pole paranoia play are behind me.

 

[TwoSix]

1. remove subclass features from warlock
2. remove mystic arcanum from warlock like in playtest.
3. make those invocations.
4. add 10 more invocations slots.
5. Profit!

Sometimes I feel like a broken record recommending the same homebrew, but, yea:

Alternate Warlock by laserllama

Alternate Warlock by laserllama - Created with GM Binder.

www.gmbinder.com

 

[Remathilis]

Nothing is free. And it blows my mind that there are players out there who think they should get powers and abilities for nothing

What is the obligations for being a sorcerer? A bard? A wizard? Why do those classes get their power duty free? What responsibilities do monks and barbarians have? Why do some classes get micromanaged by the DM and others can thumb their noses and keep their powers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What is the obligations for being a sorcerer? A bard? A wizard? Why do those classes get their power duty free? What responsibilities do monks and barbarians have? Why do some classes get micromanaged by the DM and others can thumb their noses and keep their powers.

View attachment 416206

Come on. You know the reason. I and others have explained it more than once. You just don't agree with it or like it, because you're coming at it strictly from a rules-based, mechanical perspective.

 

[Aldarc]

Yep. You could make an entire game system based around a gameplay loop of finding new demons or spirits to call and bind, using them to acheive their goals, and then dealing with the unavoidable fallout. That would be really fun.

But like you said, it just doesn't work for the D&D paradigm of "hop in loser, we're going questing!"

Also, D&D 5e wants every spellcaster to use the same spell system, even if the spells and interactions differ.

The Goetic is just one "class" in Invisible Sun. There is also the Vance, which does Vancian spell-casting. There is the Weaver that combines tags together to create a spell. There is also the Maker that approaches magic like an engineer with schematics. There are also Apostates who reject these orders and basically dabble. So even in Invisible Sun, it's not just the Goetic doing its thing. Every order has its own unique magic system.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Also, D&D 5e wants every spellcaster to use the same spell system, even if the spells and interactions differ.

The Goetic is just one "class" in Invisible Sun. There is also the Vance, which does Vancian spell-casting. There is the Weaver that combines tags together to create a spell. There is also the Maker that approaches magic like an engineer with schematics. There are also Apostates who reject these orders and basically dabble. So even in Invisible Sun, it's not just the Goetic doing its thing. Every order has its own unique magic system.

Well, that sounds amazing. Is Invisible Sun available on Drivethru?