The playtest reports really demonstrate ...

[Mengu]

I really don't enjoy this type of adventure, not my cup of tea. I don't understand the purpose. I'll take a save the damsel quest rather than this, any day of the week.

 

[Teataine]

I really don't enjoy this type of adventure, not my cup of tea. I don't understand the purpose. I'll take a save the damsel quest rather than this, any day of the week.

You can run the caves as a "save the heir" quest any day of the week.

The purpose is that you have a location that's fully developed, with enemies with their own motivations.

You tell the players that monsters have been raiding a nearly village, a duke's heir was kidnapped on the road not far from here, and they have it on good authority that a shard of Gruumsh's eye is somewhere in there. It's the player's choice which of those they will follow up. They tell you what they do, you look at the adventure and tell them what they see and what happens and so on.

Although judging by WotC's comments not all new adventures will be like this. Seems like 4E-type adventures with a plot and fully designed encounters will be on schedule, too.

 

[grimslade]

I like Isle of Dread or In Search of the Unknown more.
Best low level mod is still Sinister Secret of the Salt Marsh.

 

[mrswing]

I really dislike In Search Of The Unknown. But the Blue OD&D set had an adventure in a cave complex in it which included a hidden pirate base, and I've used that very succesfully several times to introduce people to the game.

You're very probably right about Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh. Though a number of the adventures in the UK TSR magazine Imagine were also very, very good and went beyond the straight crawl.

 

[the Jester]

The problem with Keep on the Shadowfell is that it is just an excuse for a series of encounters.

Witness the "archaeology site" encounter: The bad guys are digging up something that the BBEG need, yet the encounter basically handwaves what they are digging for and why. Is there any sort of consequence if they succeed? No. Do the pcs gain anything against Kalarel if they defeat the bad guys? No.

Witness the skill challenge with Sir Whatsit- absolutely the worst skill challenge evar, and (IMHO) one of the things that gave the skill challenge mechanic such a bad name. "Show me you have a high Arcana skill!" indeed. Roll eyes.

The Caves of Chaos are, IMHO, awesome. Yes, they are plot-thin; that's what makes a good sandbox. Saying, "This encounter is plot-important!!1!!elevenz!" and then having it be meaningless to the plot is neither good sandboxing nor good story-gaming.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I understand that the premise is to have the DM figure out the story bits for himself, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a pre-written module in the first place.

"NOTES FOR THE DUNGEON MASTER
The basic instruction book for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS@ Game has given you the information necessary to understand this game and start play. This module is another tool.

It is a scenario or setting which will help you to understand the fine art of being a Dungeon Master as you introduce your group of players to your own fantasy world, your interpretation of the many worlds of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS@ Adventure. THE KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS is simply offered
for your use as a way to move smoothly and rapidly into your own special continuing adventures or campaigns.

Read the module thoroughly; you will notice that the details are left in your hands. This allows you to personalize the scenario, and suit it to what you and your players will find most enjoyable."
- page 2

B2 is a starter module for inexperienced / first time DM's. Something that seems to be regularly overlooked in it's criticism either to score cool points or because the people criticizing the module havent actually READ the module.

Theres a big difference between a low level module like U1, which was written for experienced DM's for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and a starter adventure like B2 which was written for Basic Dungeons and Dragons.

It says it right there on the cover:

"INTRODUCTORY MODULE FOR CHARACTER LEVELS 1-3

It has been specifically designed for use by beginning Dungeon Masters so that they may begin play with a minimum of preparations."

I mean the first four pages are centered around getting a first time DM situated with titles like NOTES FOR THE DUNGEON MASTER (which is par for the course but compared to other modules out at the time this section is really hand holdy), USING THE COMBAT TABLES, MOVEMENT IN COMBAT, HOW TO BE AN EFFECTIVE DUNGEON MASTER, TIME, DIVIDING TREASURE AND COMPUTING EXPERIENCE and PREPARATION FOR THE USE OF THE MODULE.

I use pre-written adventures all the time and I'd argue that if you still dont read through it and personalize things for your group / players then you're doing a pretty crappy job of DMing. The map is not the territory.

I'd much rather spend my creative energy writing my own adventure from scratch than trying to make sense of this mess of a dungeon.

Yes and back when I was 12-13 years old B2 helped ease me (and I'm guessing quite a few others) into that.

You know everyone likes to pretend that they were some adventure writing idiot savant back then. But most of the games that I played in and even the ones that I wrote myself back in those days were pretty BAD. The most fun that I had in the early days were playing Isle of Dread, The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, White Plume Mountain , Village of Hommlett (there WAS no Temple of Elemental Evil yet when I started...) Against the Giants and Ghost Tower of Inverness. It was a rare thing playing in someone's home brew where it was actually good and imaginative and original. Most of it was people trying to run some variation Hawk The Slayer, LOTR, Beastmaster or Conan with their own personal spin on things.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

There's something else about this bashing of B2 that I find annoying. There are honestly poorly written, bad adventures out there. I mean railroady, bad math having, boring ass adventures. But a starter module is the thing that you guys decide to come and take a steaming crap on?

B2? I'm pretty sure that I've run a variation of this adventure in EVERY EDITION OF D&D THAT I'VE EVER RUN.

I've run it in Basic, I'm pretty sure that I repurposed it in Greyhawk for my 1E campaign. I know that I ran it again at the beginning of my 2E game. I modded it for 3x. Instead of having them ALL in a ravine I split the caves into different locations in a huge "black forest" style area. When I ran my first Pathfinder game the intro adventure I repeated the Cave of Chaos as encounter location except instead of a "black forest" in was "blasted Wasteland" so I was able to spread things out a bit more and spruce up the encounter areas. I've basically run B2 so many times and with so many starting / first time players as well as experienced players who have played in the original B2. I think that of the all of the times that I've run it in it's variant forms I've had just one player ask me afterwards "Hey, are you running the Caves of Chaos?"

 

[billd91]

So instead of relying too heavily on the DM to accommodate for its shortcomings as an adventure, it relies too heavily on the players to accommodate for its shortcomings as an adventure. I can't say I'm seeing the difference here.

I don't think it's possible to rely too heavily on the players to bring meaning and story to an adventure. No matter what story a DM or writer comes up with, the players are going to change it, sometimes radically and unpredictably.

 

[Mercule]

I don't think I'd ever run an adventure like this (anymore) for one of my campaigns -- I've come to prefer fairly complex (my players might say Byzantine) plots and a focus on the PC races, rather than monsters.

If, however, I just wanted to sit down and test out a set of rules to see how they held up without investing a ton of effort into motivating the players or adding depth to a game that may be abandoned entirely in a month, this is exactly the sort of module I'd choose.

If the next play test packet comes out with another set of 1st level characters, rather than providing 4-6 level play, I just need to wall off entrance D and we're good to go without any heartburn. If you're upset by the lack of a plot in the test adventure, you're taking it way too serious.

 

[Klaus]

I don't think I'd ever run an adventure like this (anymore) for one of my campaigns -- I've come to prefer fairly complex (my players might say Byzantine) plots and a focus on the PC races, rather than monsters.

If, however, I just wanted to sit down and test out a set of rules to see how they held up without investing a ton of effort into motivating the players or adding depth to a game that may be abandoned entirely in a month, this is exactly the sort of module I'd choose.

If the next play test packet comes out with another set of 1st level characters, rather than providing 4-6 level play, I just need to wall off entrance D and we're good to go without any heartburn. If you're upset by the lack of a plot in the test adventure, you're taking it way too serious.

Each of the different "caves" is alright, but even as a sandbox the Cavos of Chaos could use some polishing.

First, the cave entrances are too close to each other. Make the valley larger (as in, more than four miles long) to accomodate so many different creatures without the "condo of evil" feeling. Ideally, the PCs should take more than an hour to go from one cave entrance to the other, maybe more.

Second, pay some attention to the ecosystem. What do the various creatures hunt and eat? Do they have water supplies? This is easier for a DM to wing if the valley stretch over a larger area.

The genius of the Caves was the inclusion of a "sandbox" style adventure in an introductory product, thus giving an entire generation of players a single shared experience to unite them.