The playtest reports really demonstrate ...

[Agamon]

The comedy review on rpg.net by Mike Mearls is all the more ironic given it's inclusion as the first part of the playtest.

The Inside Scoop on Gaming - RPGnet

From the review - Cost: If you paid for it, you got ripped off

Mike did give it to us for free....

 

[Mercule]

Each of the different "caves" is alright, but even as a sandbox the Cavos of Chaos could use some polishing.

Fair enough. It does feel a bit too "tight". But that's a matter of degree, not categorization. It isn't inherently crappy for this intended use.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Don't worry; for those who don't like B2, I have it on good authority that Mearls will be using another classic novice adventure for the next play test round: N2: The Forest Oracle.

 

[Mark CMG]

Don't worry; for those who don't like B2, I have it on good authority that Mearls will be using another classic novice adventure for the next play test round: N2: The Forest Oracle.

Excellent news! Those planning to playtest this might benefit by prepping with help from this thread here.

 

[Hussar]

OTOH, considering that you have B4 - The Lost City - sitting right over there, we do have better examples of sandbox modules for low level parties. Instead of the cliche Tower of Orcs with virtually no guidance given to DM's on HOW to make the module more interesting, we have a fleshed out culture with all sorts of interesting critters set up with political factions and a functioning spinning tunnel to access different points in the adventure.

But, in a playtest to showcase combat mechanics, the Caves of Chaos work perfectly.

 

[Rogue Agent]

But a starter module is the thing that you guys decide to come and take a steaming crap on?

And it's very important to remember that B2 was a starter module. And, in fact, a very good starter module.

Why? Because it immediately and viscerally taught the players that they had choices and those choices are important. The minute you enter the valley you are forced to choose an entrance.

B1 taught DMs how to key modules. B2 taught players how to play.

KotS taught players to follow the poorly constructed breadcrumb trail to the next combat encounter.

 

[mkill]

You tell the players that monsters have been raiding a nearly village, a duke's heir was kidnapped on the road not far from here, and they have it on good authority that a shard of Gruumsh's eye is somewhere in there. It's the player's choice which of those they will follow up.

So why does the adventure start with a list of rooms instead of listing the plot hooks? Why doesn't it provide a village for the PCs to start in and collect rumors?

Yes, you can run Caves of Chaos in a sensible, non-boring way. But that requires a DM who knows adventure design, and adds the missing parts. It's like buying a printer, opening the box, and the USB cable is missing and you're supposed to shell out another $20 for it. Yes, companies do that, but it's f*** annoying.

 

[variant]

So why does the adventure start with a list of rooms instead of listing the plot hooks? Why doesn't it provide a village for the PCs to start in and collect rumors?

Yes, you can run Caves of Chaos in a sensible, non-boring way. But that requires a DM who knows adventure design, and adds the missing parts. It's like buying a printer, opening the box, and the USB cable is missing and you're supposed to shell out another $20 for it. Yes, companies do that, but it's f*** annoying.

The adventure starts with "Make This Your Own Adventure" which has plot hooks. It's a sandbox meant to give tools to a DM to use.

 

[pemerton]

I've come to prefer fairly complex (my players might say Byzantine) plots

<snip>

If you're upset by the lack of a plot in the test adventure, you're taking it way too serious.

Except, without plot or backstory of some description, how is there going to be any serious testing of the interaction mechanics? Or of those parts of the exploration mechanics that go beyond looking for secret doors and disarming traps?

in a playtest to showcase combat mechanics, the Caves of Chaos work perfectly.

But what happened to the three pillars? And to rogues getting through locked gates by poisoning the guards' lunches?

 

[thalmin]

... Gygax's design genius in Keep on the Borderlands.

Think about it ... so many groups, having so many different and varied experiences, but despite that having a common baseline for discussion of their experiences in the Caves of Chaos. I attribute that in part to the design of the module -- it's a sandboxy kind of design, so the story flows from the DM's set up, the players, and their characters' actions rather than any explicit goal outlined in the adventure -- as well as its style, which tends to be spare and allows the DM to fill in details in a way to fit the group.

The adventure's design with multiple types of challenges to interact with as well as a near-infinite number of ways to approach the Caves of Chaos ensures variability and make repeat play enjoyable. I'd like to see this adventure available with whatever the introductory 5E product is.

Well done, Gary. Your adventure is more than 30 years old and still works as well today many iterations of D&D later. We miss you.

Thank you so much for this thread.
I have hated Keep on the Borderlands since the second time I played in it, over 30 years ago. Back in the early days, I must have played in the Keep at least 5 times.
I enjoyed it the first time. But when another DM decided to run it again for us in spite of the fact we had all already played in it, I hated the thought of playing it. Same for the 3rd, 4th, and 5th times. But I still played it each time, and I had fun playing it each time. It was the THOUGHT of playing it again I disliked, not the adventure itself. I never learned the layouts because each time we played it, the game was different.
More important, I resented it being the playtest module, but softened because I realized most of my players probably had never played it. But it was a boring play because there was nothing there. I made it boring because I expected so little of it. I ignored the hooks and such at the beginning and I never made the adventure MINE.
Having read the many comments and arguments, I can't wait to run Cave of Chaos this week for my playtest group again. It sure won't be the same adventure we have been playing for months. We are going to have some fun.
Thanks for helping me to pull my head out of my...um...back pocket.