The Possibility of "Too Fantastic" Fantasy

[JohnSnow]

Planescape: While based on standard (at the time) D&D cosmology, it diverged very far from the common fantasy tropes.
Spelljammer: Again, too wildly divergent from standard fantasy to gain mass appeal (in my opinion, they should have emphasized parallels to the historical Age of Sai much stronger - including a "default setting" with multiple "core worlds" similar in culture to the powers of Europe and a "colonial rim" similar to overseas colonies of the former.)
Dark Sun: Again, very different from any tropes and stories most people are familiar with.

The problem with these settings is that they're not even "Medieval Fantasy." All three are total "gimick" settings, relying on nothing but their central premise.

By contrast, Eberron is still "medieval fantasy," albeit with some very fantastic elements overlaid. Based on all reports, it's a quite successful setting. Another example of this type of fantasy that's doing very well is Monte Cook's Ptolus. Some other examples of settings like this include Zakhara or Mystara, where the fantastic is quite a bit more prevalent than in a setting that's more like "medieval europe plus monsters and fantasy races."

The latter is perfectly doable in D&D, but actually bringing the fantastic into the society (in a way that isn't just a ripoff of modern technology powered by magic) is actually a challenge worthy of the efforts of professional game designers.

If you want The Lord of the Rings, the DM's work is already done. But a setting where the magic is incorporated in a way that's logical without being silly is actually interesting.

 

[DandD]

There aren't that many Planescape/Spelljammer/Dark Sun-novels or novels that preceed such settings (Dracula-stories, Cthulhu-mythos, cyberpunk-stories, pulp fiction adventures, and yeah, anime and manga), if compared with those other settings/game systems that you mention. Exalted would be a gross horror for most anti-4th edition-people here on this board, and they already feel that 4th edition is turning into something like that.

Also, one of the faults of TSR and why it went bankrupt was that they didn't do any market research. They all created these dozens of settings purely out of gut-feeling, and then simply didn't support them later.

There are of course other problems why the completely made-up-original settings didn't deliver that much. Some are mixing elements that people just feel 'meh' about it, while other have a forced symmetry-design that doesn't appeal that much to players... others have mediocre and rather bad novels that ruin the setting.

Of course, the funny thing is, the Forgotten Realms campaign game was heavily influenced by the Forgotten Realms-novels. Most FR-players always complained about the crazy stuff that the authors brought into the official setting due to the novels. That's how the FR were glutted with tons of uber-NPCs, absurd-strong magic items, those so-called "Realms-shaking-events" that seem to happen weekly, and stuff. And still, they tried to retain the Status Quo for the players who didn't care for the novels.

Now, they're trying to reset both things. Get rid of the bajillions of uber-NPCs that got introduced from the novels, and make the FR a place for pen-and-paper-rounds again, not only a (mediocre) fantasy novel line.
At least, they're trying.

Personally, I couldn't care less about the old or the new FR.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Minor nitpick: As you well know, the DM's work isn't done by half when trying to do Lord of the Rings, unless you're using Grim Tales, Iron Heroes, or maybe True20. Ubiquity of magic, regular ol' human PC wizards and all that.

As to the settings you mention: I might suggest that Planescape is actually not so much a "gimmick" setting as a kitchen sink one that threw in a logical extrapolation of another set of tropes in D&D: Namely, the existence of the Great Wheel, the ease (to a certain extent) of planar travel, and the proliferation of outsider-type creatures all over.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

The latter is perfectly doable in D&D, but actually bringing the fantastic into the society (in a way that isn't just a ripoff of modern technology powered by magic) is actually a challenge worthy of the efforts of professional game designers.

If you want The Lord of the Rings, the DM's work is already done. But a setting where the magic is incorporated in a way that's logical without being silly is actually interesting.

Well, that's what I have been trying to do with Urbis. And I still ripped off real world history in many ways in the hopes of making the setting more accessible to the readers. I hope that I have succeeded, but only time will tell...

 

[Wyrmshadows]

My players loved Dark Sun, it was the setting of one of my best campaigns. However, I remember one of my players saying, almost unconsciously, "I miss horses." I eventually felt the same way. The most successful fantasy settings take the familiar and put a unique spin on it.



Wyrmshadows

 

[JohnSnow]

Minor nitpick: As you well know, the DM's work isn't done by half when trying to do Lord of the Rings, unless you're using Grim Tales, Iron Heroes, or maybe True20. Ubiquity of magic, regular ol' human PC wizards and all that.

I meant in world building terms. If you want to play in a setting similar to Middle Earth, which is to say, broadly, "Fantasy version of Medieval Europe," then D&D supports that out of the box. It's not terribly difficult to have medieval villages that have to worry about being attacked by dragons. You just copy Tolkien, as so many have done through the years, or you build a medieval europe analogue and start grafting fantasy elements "onto the edges."

It's a predominantly human world, with the races largely isolated, and magic is mostly restricted to "those who have walked in wild lands." The only common creatures are those that exist in the real world, although there's some fantastic versions of those (giant spiders, giant eagles, and so forth).

That's what I meant. Not the specific details of Tolkien's world, but the general concept. Making a setting that's essentially just "medieval Europe with fantasy on the edges" is beyond "easy."

As to the settings you mention: I might suggest that Planescape is actually not so much a "gimmick" setting as a kitchen sink one that threw in a logical extrapolation of another set of tropes in D&D: Namely, the existence of the Great Wheel, the ease (to a certain extent) of planar travel, and the proliferation of outsider-type creatures all over.

Emphasis mine. That's the gimick. Planescape is utterly, and completely, dependent on one concept - the Great Wheel and planar travel - that doesn't even exist outside of D&D. To say that's a niche setting concept is putting it mildly. There's nothing remotely familiar about that setting.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Emphasis mine. That's the gimick. Planescape is utterly, and completely, dependent on one concept - the Great Wheel and planar travel - that doesn't even exist outside of D&D. To say that's a niche setting concept is putting it mildly. There's nothing remotely familiar about that setting.

Indeed. I mean, I loved that setting - all the exploration of the logical consequences of living in worlds shaped by belief; the interaction of all the supernatural entities sharing the same cosmology, and the big honking city at the center of it all with portals to everywhere.

But despite all my love, I understand fully why this setting was canceled as a line.

 

[Reynard]

I think it is important to remember that what the world is like doesn't necessarily reflect what the PCs are like. The PCs are, by definition, special, and if they don't conform wholly to the rest of the world, it isn't a great loss. The DM could say that only 1 in 10000 people has the innate talent necessary to cast spells and still run an all Wizard campaign, for example.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

By contrast, Eberron is still "medieval fantasy," albeit with some very fantastic elements overlaid.

How so? I didn't find anything medieval in Eberron, really. Attitudes, places, technology, it all seems more like the period 1500-1800 than 1100-1300. They have trains and skyscrapers and tolerance and so on for goodness sake. The atmosphere is in no way "medieval", unless your definition of "medieval fantasy" is so broad as to include all fantasty that isn't "modern fantasy".

 

[JohnSnow]

How so? I didn't find anything medieval in Eberron, really. Attitudes, places, technology, it all seems more like the period 1500-1800 than 1100-1300. They have trains and skyscrapers and tolerance and so on for goodness sake. The atmosphere is in no way "medieval", unless you definition of "medieval fantasy" is so broad as to include all fantasty that isn't "modern fantasy".

Swords, armor, bows. Travel is mostly by horseback or ship. I recognize the lightning rail as a "weird" element, but Eberron's "airships" are more "flying galleons" than "airplanes."

As far as skyscrapers, it's worth pointing out that Sharn is unique. Most cities in Eberron are much flatter. You've picked the one city with skyscrapers and extrapolated it to the whole setting.

Medieval may be a stretch, but most of Eberron is basically consistent with a late-medieval (read: "Renaissance") setting. The fantastic elements (like the "lightning rail" and magical message services) do make the overall feel more "late 19th-century," but that's viewed from a modern perspective.