The Possibility of "Too Fantastic" Fantasy

[ruleslawyer]

How so? I didn't find anything medieval in Eberron, really. Attitudes, places, technology, it all seems more like the period 1500-1800 than 1100-1300.

More like 1919-1930, actually.

Medieval may be a stretch, but most of Eberron is basically consistent with a late-medieval (read: "Renaissance") setting. The fantastic elements (like the "lightning rail" and magical message services) do make the overall feel more "late 19th-century," but that's viewed from a modern perspective.

Can't agree with ya there. Eberron's airships are much, much more of a quasi-scientific creation than a Munchausen-style flying galleon, and the lightning rail, the trade model of the dragonmarked houses, and the existence of Sharn (and like it or not, Sharn's skyscrapers are an important part of the setting; just because not everywhere has skyscrapers doesn't mean that Sharn isn't a sufficiently iconic city to leave its imprint on the "Eberron feel" as a whole) is practically tailor-made to give the setting an early 20th c. Europe feel. The two sources that stick out most prominently in the intro to the ECS are the Indiana Jones movies and The Mummy, after all.

That's the gimick. Planescape is utterly, and completely, dependent on one concept - the Great Wheel and planar travel - that doesn't even exist outside of D&D. To say that's a niche setting concept is putting it mildly. There's nothing remotely familiar about that setting.

Nothing familiar outside of D&D, sure. My point was that PS is basically about allowing any and all kinds of "fantasy feel" by virtue of its link-all-the-D&D-worlds-and-planes together approach. Sigil and its related flavor is very much a gimmick, but I think that PS's major design goal was "figure out a consistent way to hook all these things together" rather than "build an entire setting out of the concept of the Great Wheel." Just MHO...

 

[JohnSnow]

My point was that PS is basically about allowing any and all kinds of "fantasy feel" by virtue of its link-all-the-D&D-worlds-and-planes together approach. Sigil and its related flavor is very much a gimmick, but I think that PS's major design goal was "figure out a consistent way to hook all these things together" rather than "build an entire setting out of the concept of the Great Wheel." Just MHO...

So why on earth did they come up with a goofy gimick to "hook everything together" rather than just doing it?

I think it's fair to say that the major design goal of Planescape was "making the planes accessible for play at low levels." I think that's pretty solidly a niche setting.

As far as Eberron goes, I admit that calling it "medieval" is probably a stretch. But I think it's certainly more "accessible" than Planescape, Spelljammer, or even Dark Sun. It does fill its stated design goal of a world where magic is utilized in the same way that technology is in the real world. And in the process, it makes a world that has a certain level of "industrialized" feel to it.

 

[pawsplay]

There's something I will call the Planescrape Threshold. It's a line, which pretty much runs directly through Planescape. I remember when Planescape was a really cool, hip thing, but it never quite became a mainstream appetite. It can go sort of either way, depending on the tastes of the moment, the zeitgeist. The line basically separates two regions of fantasy.

The first region is the fantasy of Hollywood. You have knights, peasants, old wise women, dragons, ogres, leeching, lynching, the Holy Grail, evil sorcerer kings, and so forth. The near edge is King Arthur and his knights, the far edge is probably Leiber's Lankhmar books or maybe the D&D movie.

The second region is Skyrealms of Jorune. These are places of pure fantasy. GURPS Fantasy II, Talislanta, Tekumel, Exalted, Glorantha, and the like are in the second region. The near edge is probably stuff like Talislanta and Vance's Dying Earth, which while strange, are recognizably swords-and-sorcery and at least nod to familiar Earth concepts. The far edge is stuff like Tekumel and Glorantha, which have a completely grounds-up different nature than Earth.

What's the point? The stuff in the first region is an easy sell but potentially boring. Sometimes, cliches break down until the whole thing becomes nonsensical. The stuff in the second region is inaccessible. People have to study to even make reasonable characters for the game, and good luck understanding the point of the thing without reading the campaign book cover to cover. When done well, these kinds of settings can be intensely rewarding, but they are hard to find players for, and sometimes the authors have trouble connecting the various parts of the setting to make a coherent whole.

In general, the "next big thing" of the moment will be stuff just over the line into the first region. In general, the stuff people love that won't stay in print and spawns endless fan sites and occasionally fan-based professional publication is just over the line into the second region. In between is contested ground; "oriental" settings tend to fall into this no man's land. Mystara and especially the Hollowed World are another example of settings that could be published and thrive but aren't and don't, because there are more accessible choices.

I do not think 4e is "too fantastical." I think it definitely strays very close to that line. King Arthur, for instance, would hardly be at home, and even a thieves' guild might be pushing it in a world where PCs can go bullet time when they reach 12th level or so. However, I don't think 4e is in any danger of crossing over the Planescape Threshold.

It will be a recognizable swords-and-sorcery world with ancient, medieval, and Renaissance touches, recognizable links to video game style high fantasy, recognizable links to popular D&D worlds. I think the designers are aiming to read just so close to that line without getting sucked in. Maximum interest without losing your audience's grounding.

I'm not sure they hit the sweet spot, that really remains to be seen. and I have reservations about some of their aesthetic choices. But I think they will give us something comfortable enough to our fantasy RPG sensibilities.

Is it too fantastical for my tates? Probably. And that's even though I love Talislanta and really like the Dying Earth, Tekumel, and Glorantha. But that's because I am looking for a more specific formulation. I've been through many editions of D&D, and to me, the D&D-ist are the ones where characters wear chainmail and use longswords, not leaf armor and singhams.

 

[JohnSnow]

The line basically separates two regions of fantasy.

The first region is the fantasy of Hollywood. You have knights, peasants, old wise women, dragons, ogres, leeching, lynching, the Holy Grail, evil sorcerer kings, and so forth. The near edge is King Arthur and his knights, the far edge is probably Leiber's Lankhmar books or maybe the D&D movie.

The second region is Skyrealms of Jorune. These are places of pure fantasy. GURPS Fantasy II, Talislanta, Tekumel, Exalted, Glorantha, and the like are in the second region. The near edge is probably stuff like Talislanta and Vance's Dying Earth, which while strange, are recognizably swords-and-sorcery and at least nod to familiar Earth concepts. The far edge is stuff like Tekumel and Glorantha, which have a completely grounds-up different nature than Earth.

Here's the thing. While I agree totally with your theory, calling it "The Planescape Threshold" implies that Planescape straddles the line between the two regions. However, by contrast, I'd argue that Planescape is well over the line into the second region.

Curiously, where on this continuum would you place, say, Dragonlance, Eberron and The Forgotten Realms.

 

[wolfen]

I read the Original post. I admit I haven't read the 4 pages since then.

The more fantastic Wizards makes the baseline, the more of a challenge they pose to do-it-yourselfers, the majority of which are quite capable of making comparatively mundane campaigns. By upping it a notch, Wizards and their army of freelancers are saying "hey, we're more creative than you. And you should buy our stuff."

Pulling the baseline out of the familiar puts the creative advantage firmly in Wizards' hands. I'm sure that has not escaped them.

Frankly, I don't like things too fantastic. i've been in several campaigns like that and each time the DM trots out some new dog and pony show I find myself increasingly bored. "Oh look, talking hippogriffs have teleported to our rescue, and to fly us to the Plane of Air. *yawn* "

Wizards is fighting for relevance.

 

[Raduin711]

I think that 4e is going in the right direction here.

Some comments have said that we may be going too fantasy, we may be losing the mundane that roots it all into reality. I don't think that is going to be a problem.

One of the earliest comments said that D&D has been ignoring the mundane for too long. I would disagree- if anything, too much attention has been paid to it.

The problem is, and this is mentioned in W&M, that medieval society looks fake if you just pile the fantasy on top of it. It's like throwing hundreds of dragons, wizards and the like on top of late midieval england, and expecting the society to look the same. That has been pretty clear for a long time. And the bigger focus we have on a large, dominant civilization, the more those dragons and wizards are going to feel out of place. And after all, those things are what we came here to see.

So I think the idea isn't to kill or ignore civilization and "the mundane". We are just reducing it's scope so A) It can be easily managed, B) Looks less out of place next to the fantastic elements that dominate the world, and C) give the adventurers plenty to do without making the problems they face seem unlikely.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Qft.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Hey check out these webcomics!
http://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html

There is "Order of the Stick" and "Erfworld".

"Order of the Stick" is a D&D parody. This is the mone "mundane" of the two. Anyone who knows D&D largly knows what is going on. There's an adventuring party, a BBEG, and even some dragons. It is easy to relate too because you are generally familair with all the basic concepts.

"Erfworld" represents a world that runs like a turn based stragety game. This is the more "fantastic" of the two. The comic uses a good of world specific jargon. It's sort of like starting at the second disk of Final Fantasy 7 with the manual or any internet guides. It is sort of hard to realate to since you have to figure out what is going on.

 

[Afrodyte]

I won't speak for Hussar, but my issue with focusing too much on 'world building' is that such pursuits often come at the expense of actual play.

• Time spent world building is time not spent on preparing adventure material.
• A lot of world building is done without considering how it affects actual play.
• A highly developed world places constraints on adventure design.
• A highly developed world all too often places undue limits on PC design space.

Thanks for saying this.

 

[pawsplay]

Here's the thing. While I agree totally with your theory, calling it "The Planescape Threshold" implies that Planescape straddles the line between the two regions. However, by contrast, I'd argue that Planescape is well over the line into the second region.

Curiously, where on this continuum would you place, say, Dragonlance, Eberron and The Forgotten Realms.

Hmm... Off the top of my head

-5 King Arthur and his knights, the movie Dragonslayer
-4 Howard's Conan, LOTR, Ars Magica
-3 Greyhawk, Warhammer FRP, Palladium
-2 Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Everquest
-1 Eberron, World of Warcraft, Dungeon Siege/Asheron's Call, Lankhmar
0 Planescape, Mystara, Kara-Tur, GURPS Yrth, Roma Arcana
+1 Exalted, Talislanta, Rokugan, The Dying Earth, Dark Sun
+2 Earthdawn, Stormbringer, Blue Rose
+3 Elfquest, Bakshe's Wizards, Darksword
+4 Glorantha, Jorune, GURPS Fantasy II
+5 Tekumel, Synnibarr

In general, anything over the threshold has non-tradiditional protagonists. Anything straddling the line has pretty standard character types, but the setting or some of the context might be odd to people unfamiliar with the source. Anything under the threshold can likely be summed by up fighters, rogues, magicians, and kings.

EDIT: Anything straddling the line can usually be summarize by a "high concept" description:

All the D&D worlds, linked by a city of portals where belief is reality.
Chivalric romance meets Greek myth meets swords-and-sorcery.
D&D in the mysterious Orient.
A world where the crusades never ended and magic is real.
A magical world where Rome never fell.