The Possibility of "Too Fantastic" Fantasy

[Raduin711]

I read the Original post. I admit I haven't read the 4 pages since then.

The more fantastic Wizards makes the baseline, the more of a challenge they pose to do-it-yourselfers, the majority of which are quite capable of making comparatively mundane campaigns. By upping it a notch, Wizards and their army of freelancers are saying "hey, we're more creative than you. And you should buy our stuff."

Pulling the baseline out of the familiar puts the creative advantage firmly in Wizards' hands. I'm sure that has not escaped them.

Frankly, I don't like things too fantastic. i've been in several campaigns like that and each time the DM trots out some new dog and pony show I find myself increasingly bored. "Oh look, talking hippogriffs have teleported to our rescue, and to fly us to the Plane of Air. *yawn* "

Wizards is fighting for relevance.

Good points. However...

I would disagree with your statement that putting more fantasy in D&D puts the creative advantage in their corner. I think I can come up with some pretty interesting fantastical ideas... and I think a lot of other people can too. The problem is making those fantastic ideas fit in a slightly mundane setting. You ever notice that in modern fantasies it is harder to explain how we blindly coexist with the supernatural, than it is to explain the supernatural element itself? How in comic books, it is easier to explain the superheroes and villains than it is to explain how regular society exists, just like it is now, beneath them?

Vampire: the masquerade: Vampires are decended from Caine. Easy. Vampires keep their existence secret with a set of laws called the masquerade, which helps them keep secrets like mutant-looking vampires, and gargoyles and ancient, all-powerful antediluvian vampires... hard.

Fantastic Four: Reed Richards has super stretchability and is one of the world's greatest geniuses. Easy. Reed is always building super technology like things to switch the Four's superpowers around and flying jet cars, yet the people of new york are still driving internal combustion cars and lack any superpowers whatsoever. REALLY HARD.

But anyway I think I am getting off track.

Your second example, about the Hippogriffs... It certainly sounds dull, but why is it dull?

Here are my thoughts: Well, Firstly it is a deus ex machina. Secondly, the plane (or should I say plain) of elemental air, while fantastic, is very dull. Thirdly, talking hippogriffs is fantasy overload. Hippogriffs are fantastic enough as it is. Making them talk for no good reason is silly.

I think from what I read recently of Worlds and Monsters, I think you will be all right.

They talked in it about "needless symmetry", which brough about such bore-fest planes like the plane of air and the plane of positive energy. (a plane of nothing but air, and a plane of nothing but... positive energy? I'm sorry I must have lost my travel brochure... maybe next year.) I think that they are doing this because they want all the fantasy to be interesting fantasy, and not just be there to fill some percieved gap.

As for the fantasy overload, I can't say. I have always felt that tacking half-dragon to everything made the actual dragons seem less interesting, but that is just me. Hopefully they stop at Dragonborn with the half-dragon concept. But then again I know some people want to see dragons absolutely everywhere...

So I guess it comes down to how much you believe in WOTC. At least that is my opinion.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Just quick point with the whole Dragonborn thing, I think it depends on how Dragonborn are used. They could potentially make a Dragon seem more fantastic, or more dangerous, rare, etc.

You could have rampaging-hordes of Dragonborn flying a Dragon banner, that strikes fear into the hearts of civilians. Just imagine the horror and fear when a real Dragon is seen.

Or perhaps Dragonborn in your world were slaves who rebelled against the Dragons. For centuries they have told tales of these "Dragons" but to see one in the flesh, simply brings all these tales to the forefront and all the horror the Dragonborn experienced into view.

I could list a ton of more examples, but yeah I think it depends on how Dragonborn are used. Since they aren't Dragons, they are only-related to Dragons. They are still human-sized, mass-multiplaying PC-allowed race.

A Dragon, well it is a DRAGON!

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

And then the furries ripped my idea off all over the internet, though they probably also have tauric versions.

Actually you are correct I've allowed them in my campaigns for years. Would you like pictures? And tauric or non varieties because I have both?

 

[Fenes]

I think I'll simply use Dragonborn as another type of lizardfolk, with as much of a link to Dragons as kobolds can claim.

The overload on half-dragon/half-fiend/half-whatever templates was bad enough at times (in my opinion) that "joe human fighter" started to look like something really, really exotic.

 

[Raduin711]

I think I'll simply use Dragonborn as another type of lizardfolk, with as much of a link to Dragons as kobolds can claim.

The overload on half-dragon/half-fiend/half-whatever templates was bad enough at times (in my opinion) that "joe human fighter" started to look like something really, really exotic.

I agree.

I think half dragons/demons are the two biggest offenders. And I hope Dragonborn & Tieflings will satisfy players and dm's...

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't know why people are making such a big deal about "Points of Light" as if it were something new.

From even the early years, wilderness wandering monster tables have always implied "POL". The fact that you step out of the village into the woods and the DM starts rolling on these tables if you hang around too long is a hint that the concept's as old as the hills.

I find it hard to believe it was borrowed off of Exalted, more that the implied setting just got spelled out for once.

Absolutely agreed.

D&D might include worlds that are not POL, but the "action" generally takes place in areas (like the Borderlands where a particular Keep was located) that are definitely POLish.

RC

 

[Hussar]

Wow Hussar you have a lot of hostility toward homebrewing. A lot of DMs derive great pleasure in creating a world. In fact, worldbuilding keeps me interested in DMing even when I get burned out. Worldbuilding is a creative outlet unto itself that gets a DM's imagination going and helps spark new ideas as one sees the potential interactions between different parts of the setting. If worldbuilding wasn't an option, I would've quit D&D many years ago.

Worldbuilding is no more mental masturbation than any other creative act done for the joy of the work and the joy derived from creating something others (ie. your players) can enjoy. If worldbuilding is mental masturbation then certainly so is a game where adults sit around a table using books full of rules to play what amounts to nothing more than a complex game of make-believe.



Wyrmshadows

Not hostility for homebrewing. My ire and hostility is aroused by the fact that, by virtue of the game having virtually no setting included, I'm forced to create a setting in order to play.

I think I know why. . .



This is true. Absolutely, 100% true. But for every GM who has the free time available to create their own settings, there seem to be dozens who don't. And, right now, those people essentially have three options when it comes to D&D:

1. Buy a seperate pre-made setting (which can be very pricey).
2. Buy a different game that comes with a pre-made setting.
3. Find another hobby that is less time-intensive.

In recent years, it appeas as if more and more people have choosing Option #3, as evidenced by the continuing decline in sales throughout the hobby. I suspect that, as the core D&D player base grows older and takes on more responsibility IRL, they may be a bit resentfuil that their favorite game isn't doing much to change with them.

It looks like Option #2 above can be safely crossed off the list if D&D 4e actually contains some kind of a codified default setting out of the box. Such a setting not only makes the game more accessible to RPG newcomers who have no idea how to build a decent setting, but also to longtime fans whose RL responsibilities get in the way of such a laborious endeavor.

More importantly, including a codified default setting in no way prevents the homebrewers from creating their own

JD has hit it perfectly for me. I have zero interest in world building. I don't enjoy it. I love playing the game, but, I loathe creating worlds. Hopefully, now, I get the best of both worlds. A fairly detailed enough setting that I play with out of the box and a game I can play right away. Fantastic. Back to the days of Basic and Expert D&D! WAHOO!

Back on the original topic.

The problem of mundane in the game comes down to what you define as mundane. If mundane is "anything not inherently magical" then it should be perfectly fine to buy hippogriffs in the PHB.

Unfortunately, far too often "mundane" is defined as "anything we could find in England between the years of 800 and 1300 AD.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I know from big, cool fantasy and how to incorporate it into a setting and gear it for player use. But, somehow, when I set my fingers to keyboard to work on something for my own game, for the game that is going to determine whether 4E is "for me" or not, I talk about trees and rivers and the weather. The Weather!!! Oh sure, I included a lake monster and a couple other fantasy elements, but ti was largely "mundane".

And I think I know why -- I like my fantasy firmly rooted in the mundane because it makes the fantastic that much more so. In addition, the mundane is more familiar and familiar encourages immersion and immersion makes the game more "real"

My homebrewed campaign world has, among other things, the following PC types:

* Humans partially descended from giants, who have a pact with a demigod living in the mundane world (Alderhald and Ska)
* Elves, gnomes, and faerie animals (Westernized hengeyokai) that are fey.
* Giants and dwarves as (medium) giants.
* Talking animals.
* Anthromoporphic animals.
* Humans who have been "touched" by the Beast Lords of various animal types, giving them animal-like qualities.
* Humans who are inherently tainted by evil forces (Caliban).
* Half-fey humans that are not half-elves (Spirit Folk).

In addition, my world has, among other things,

* Evil slavers from the moon.
* Literally millions of spirits that act as minor divinities.
* Civilizations that span from the Stone Age to the advent of firearms (limited to the dwarves at the moment).
* A living colossus that stands over a harbour, speaking one word each morning, and one word each night. Some believe that it is counting down to the end of the world.
* Dinosaurs that are part of the ecology (as opposed to part of a Lost World).
* Also, intelligent, spellcasting dinosaurs.
* Imprisoned gods that seek to destroy the world if they are released.
* An intelligent, extra-dimensional "wandering dungeon" that seeks to entrap and devour adventurers.
* Places where you can travel from one end of the world to the other without needing to cast a single spell (Backroads & Crossroads).
* Ley lines and power nexus rules from Heroes of High Favour: Elves.
* Flying monkeys. Actually, you could have a flying monkey PC......
* A "nameless day" every four years where the walls between the worlds of the living and the dead are especially permeable.

And, despite all this, I still agree with you 100%. For every fantastic element, there must be a greater corresponding slice of the mundane just to keep the fantastic fantastic, and to ground the PCs in the world. For every ghost-haunted Selby-by-the-Water, there must be a corresponding "mundane" town like Long Archer; for every Ravenlady of Rookhaven (magical town ruler), there must be a corresponding rule by a combination of nobles, elected officials, and/or guild interests.

Moresoever, however fantastic the Ravenlady may seem, it is important that Rookhaven itself seems like a place that could exist....and that means a certain level of the mundane.

As an example, Selby-by-the-Water, subject to collapses and drownings, is haunted by ghosts and other undead. This is something people must take into account to live there. The remains of drowned homes and businesses can be seen through the clear lake water (and explored by PCs who dare). Water-breathing aquatic sheep graze on the weeds, and some claim to have seen blue-skinned herdsmen there in the depths. Lake monsters are seldom seen, but to hear their booming mating calls in the spring is considered a sign of good luck. Go into the sewers, and you might face ghouls, or uncover old streets now long forgotten and built over as the town has recovered from its first tragic collapse. Small pterodactyls vie with gulls for scraps in the harbour.

Selby-by-the-Water also acts as a free port, with a Charter and an elected mayor. There are aristocrats in the town, but they do not rule. Guild interests, and the interests of trade, are the primary considerations not only for what laws exist, but also for how they are enforced. The town gaol is essentially a large, damp pit with guarded walls; not a few die due to the conditions within long before their case can be seen by a Magistrate.

Citizens take the undead seriously. Few go out after night falls, and being placed in the stocks past dark is reserved only for serious offenses. Innkeepers sell bags of salt to draw circles around customer's beds that are thought to keep some types of ghosts at bay. Patrols are well-armed at night, and go in strong company....and even then are unlikely to tangle with a ghoul if one is spotted. During the last Day of the Dead, when many undead creatures left through the South Gate, the guards simply made way and pretended nothing was happening.

When another collapse occurred (aboleths are mining away the undercity), it was followed by an outbreak of cholera that threatened to leave Selby a town of the dead and the undead. The cholera was cured when a band of adventurers recovered the Skull of St. Brendan from Rookhaven, and that holy relic was paraded around the city.

It is this combination of the fantastic and the mundane that makes D&D work, IMHO. The mundane details make the fantastic seem grounded, and thus more believable. The common makes the very rare stranger by implication.


RC

 

[EATherrian]

RC, I love the sound of your world. It sounds so detailed. Just one question, world-builder to world-builder, did you start at the present and work back or start with the history and see how it fit together. I'm interested because I generally do the latter and find I don't have as many cool things happening in mine. For the sake of this argument I generally create the world around a low magic background, it makes it easier; but for the upcoming of 4E I'm retiring my old world and going back to an idea I never finished. Thanks for the inspiration!

One note though:

* Evil slavers from the moon.

Not whalers...?

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, I love the sound of your world. It sounds so detailed.

Thank you. Now, for an honest moment....the world is not as detailed as it sounds. It is detailed in a broad way, and some areas are detailed in a narrow way. I do a lot of broad-strokes, and fill in the fine details as needed. The trick is, of course, to have enough of an overview of the world that the players can never tell what was just added, and what was always there.

Just one question, world-builder to world-builder, did you start at the present and work back or start with the history and see how it fit together.

I start with the present, do a long zoom on history (i.e., how the world was formed, etc.), and then fill from both directions as the need arises. My world has been formed by the squabbling of divine powers, and civilizations have been lost when those powers transformed the world in nasty ways. Because outposts of those lost civilizations still survive, as do undead from those times, I need an overarching idea of who was around, and what they were like. Thus, I know a bit about the ancient Hak, Esk, and Parthelonian peoples, and I certainly know how an ancient Esk wizard would differ from his modern equivilent. After all, the Esk lich will only be different if I do this work.

I try to do the more interesting, focused historical work within the last 500 years. I want to know what will affect the PCs: What holidays there are, and why. What calendar is used. What is going on in religion. What places people pilgrimage to, and what happened there to make them famous. Where the big battles were. Where ruins are located.

When devising a specific location, like Selby-by-the-Water, I come up with ideas, and ask "Why?". Detail: Selby is down on spellcasters. Why? Because decades ago half the town collapsed, and the townsfolk blame a local wizard, Amoreth the Arcane, for the collapse. Is Amoreth still around? No, but his ghost is. What about his tower? Still there, but even entering the grounds is punishable by death. What really happened? Amoreth discovered that the aboleth were mining under the town, and decided to do something about it. Unfortunately, he failed.

(Later on, when a PC decided that his parents were friends of the villified Amoreth, and left him at a young age to fend for himself, he was gratified when he finally learned what had happened, and that his parents had died slaying one of the aboleths. Little bits of history, and little bits of implied history, can go a long way toward making a campaign setting seem "real" to the players. When the PCs stories can get hooked into the story of the world, there is a level of satisfaction for both DM and players that is otherwise hard to evoke. IME, anyway.)

I'm interested because I generally do the latter and find I don't have as many cool things happening in mine.

Try this:

(1) Decide on the general course of the world.
(2) Generate as many cool ideas and cool things as you can.
(3) By working backwards from the present, and forwards from the past, try fitting as many in as you can without making the world muddled.
(4) Remember to have some of these cool things as part of the past. Dungeon-delving is exploration of the past. Talking to undead, dragons, or other long-lived creatures is the same. "Cool" should not be reserved for the present.
(5) Likewise, keep the world moving. Have some "cool" ideas show up as new fads, new products, new places. For example, when the party was having downtime in one game, I told them that a new, chess-like game with pieces carved into various draconic forms had appeared, and it was taking the town by storm. Everyone was playing it. Needless to say, although the game hasn't had a game effect yet, the PCs bought an expensive game set and felt really happy that they had learned the rules. They may yet discover that Dragonchess was an ancient game in southern lands, and make use of their interest in some way.

Really, that's all it takes.

One note though:

Not whalers...?

Cribbed wholecloth from H.P. Lovecraft. Creepy, scary guys who pretend to be human.


RC