D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[JohnSnow]

Eleran: You are getting the question, but you are largely missing the point.

OOC: I used a healing surge, and gained back part of my hit points.
IC: What just happened?

An event occured, what was the Observable Result

I say again, I can accept the abstraction so long as the abstraction is at least partially defined. The problem is that I don't want to metagame and then that is where I'm running into problems.

I think the problem is that you want each in-game event to be a separate, explainable occurrence. In other words, when a PC has lost three-quarters of his hit points, you want to be able to say "the sword gashes you in the leg. You're bleeding profusely, but it doesn't seem to affect your mobility."

Under that narrative use of hit points, the "healing surge" ability doesn't make sense. But that isn't the only way to model hit points.

Bear in mind that D&D has no real rules for "fatigue." Characters can literally fight "all day" without getting tired. On the other hand, as they fight they're using up hit points. Which means that hit points are partially responsible for what you might call "endurance." On the other hand, there is some degree of actual damage being done (by the way, a necessary conceit if the character is struck by a poisoned weapon, say).

What you're really asking is "what kind of actual damage was done?" And the answer is, "until it's resolved, you don't actually know." Did that blow reduce Regdar to negative hit points? Then it probably looked pretty serious. Whether it actually was serious depends on the eventual outcome. Does Regdar die? If so, then (obviously) it was serious. If he rolls a 20 on his save as he's trying to stabilize, then it may not be so serious. Maybe it's a head wound that seems to gush blood, but if he rolls that 20, it was just a graze. The gush slows to a trickle, he wipes the blood from his brow, and thinks "whew, close one!" If he stabilizes without that 20, he's down and unconscious, but not in danger of death. If he can be brought around (first aid or some power), he might not be seriously hurt. On the other hand, full recovery may not be instantaneous (Inigo in the Princess Bride is a good example of multiple uses of second wind).

Another case in point, in this case, a real world example. I was doing a sword demo last spring at the Renaissance Faire. We were using longswords (what D&D calls a "bastard sword"), and my friend doesn't pull his blow like he's supposed to and I don't duck. SMACK! I take a sword blow to the FACE! It strikes me edge on (blunted...but still), and I go down (duh!), and I'm stunned. In an actual fight, I'm a coup de grace from dead. Five minutes later, I was ready to fight again, although I wasn't allowed to. In the end, all I get is a black eye and a slight nick.

That's hit points in action folks. What was I thinking? "Whew! Close one! I'm lucky that didn't take my head off."

A D&D character with full hit points might still be a mess of small scratches (all healing nicely thanks), half-healed bruises, and the like. The point is that he's not bleeding profusely.

Now, if you want, there might be room in the game for a houserule to handle long-term injuries. Those are probably best represented by conditions, to steal a term from Star Wars Saga Edition, to reflect serious injuries. For more "realism" minded gamers, it might be nice to have a subsystem like that, but most people seem to just prefer characters never being seriously hurt. Hence, no need to burden the game with a system like that by default.

That models most novels and movies fairly well. While the characters may be a mess, even in most long-term stories, they don't spend lots of time laid up with injuries. Yes, in the "real world," people take injuries that put them out of action for a while. But it almost never happens to characters that are "plot important" in films or novels.

To me, recovery of the kind you're talking about is something that happens between adventures. So after that night's rest, you might still be scratched and bruised, but you're at full fighting strength. And like John McClane, Indiana Jones, Aragorn, or Leonidas and his men at Thermopylae, you can keep going.

And then when the adventure is over, you can actually spend a few days in rest and recovery.

 

[Toras]

Eladin: I can accept that athletes have reserves of energy beyond what they would normally use in a given day and if we accept hitpoints as the ability to defend one's self and resist damage. I don't have a problem with that assumption either. I just want to know what is actually happened.

 

[TwoSix]

But why can't they build their relationships and so on while sitting in a cave and healing their wounds? I can certainly imagine a party of explorers taking a day or two of resting time to talk about their aspirations, share stories of their homelands, and so on while recovering for the next big push through the dungeon.

I can also imagine my fellow players throwing pretzels and pouring beer on my head for trying something like that. Just adding some reality to the simulationism.

 

[eleran]

Eladin: I can accept that athletes have reserves of energy beyond what they would normally use in a given day and if we accept hitpoints as the ability to defend one's self and resist damage. I don't have a problem with that assumption either. I just want to know what is actually happened.

I think it really boils down to how much realism does each of us need. Each of us has to answer these questions and many others for ourselves.

While I may have some issues with some things in 4e. Healing surges and 10th level rings aren't among them.

 

[Toras]

John, I do not have a problem with the cinematic representation of hit points. But I do not believe many of the examples that you've sighted really work the way your suggesting. The first I would refer to as your own. Though you are lucky you didn't pick up a concussion, had that blade been sharp as those used in D&D would be, you'd likely be injured.

And more over, the spartans could be heard carterizing their wounds and binding them, something that our healing wind using friend wouldn't have to. And Inigo is another that keeps being brought up. But at the end of the "second wind" he's still stabbed in the guts and Boromir is still filled with arrows.

Now I have no problem with having hitpoints represent fatigue and the ability to defend oneself. But it that's the case tell me and if that's the case why does second wind persist? And why does divine healing use up the same sort of reserve as your 'cinematic' sort of thing?

 

[Mallus]

And why does divine healing use up the same sort of reserve as your 'cinematic' sort of thing?

Simplicity and ease-of-use.

 

[eleran]

John, I do not have a problem with the cinematic representation of hit points. But I do not believe many of the examples that you've sighted really work the way your suggesting. The first I would refer to as your own. Though you are lucky you didn't pick up a concussion, had that blade been sharp as those used in D&D would be, you'd likely be injured.

And more over, the spartans could be heard carterizing their wounds and binding them, something that our healing wind using friend wouldn't have to. And Inigo is another that keeps being brought up. But at the end of the "second wind" he's still stabbed in the guts and Boromir is still filled with arrows.

Now I have no problem with having hitpoints represent fatigue and the ability to defend oneself. But it that's the case tell me and if that's the case why does second wind persist? And why does divine healing use up the same sort of reserve as your 'cinematic' sort of thing?

I don't know what you mean by Second Wind "persisting". But as to divine healiNg power using up your reserve of healing surges I think it comes from the cleric asking his/her deity to "touch" you and restore some of your essential energy. Although, an interesting mechanic would be to have a power that allows the cleric to add-on one of his healing surges to yours for a bigger healing boost. I also like very much the fact that laying on hands takes from the paladins personal store of healing surge energy and bequeaths it to you.

 

[BryonD]

That's hit points in action folks. What was I thinking? "Whew! Close one! I'm lucky that didn't take my head off."

A D&D character with full hit points might still be a mess of small scratches (all healing nicely thanks), half-healed bruises, and the like. The point is that he's not bleeding profusely.

The problem is that there is not any one answer for what hit points are. And this new approach narrows the freedom to creatively interpret damage to fit the action and feel of the game at hand.

Hit points can be used to exactly model what you have said. But the abstraction in them, until now at least, has allowed for a much wider range of explanations.

The idea that any and every wound that can be dished out can be shaken off and deemed just a scratch fails to be remotely satisfying for the type game I have been playing for years.

 

[Nebulous]

Perhaps an easy house rule (i know, i know, it's silly to houserule a game we haven't even seen finished yet) is that the 6 hour rest DOESN'T heal wounds at all.

Maybe it just resets your healing surges once, and resets Action Points. From there, you have to still keep burning surges to get back to full health. Get in another fight, and out of surges, too bad, you already rested for 6 hours. You have to wait. Or use magic.

 

[JohnSnow]

John, I do not have a problem with the cinematic representation of hit points. But I do not believe many of the examples that you've (cited) really work the way your suggesting. The first I would refer to as your own. Though you are lucky you didn't pick up a concussion, had that blade been sharp as those used in D&D would be, you'd likely be injured.

The blade was more than sharp enough to do damage. If you don't believe me, stand in front of someone and let them swing a non-sharpened greatsword at your head with two hands. Then come back and tell me it can't injure you.

I wasn't injured because of luck. For whatever reason, it was a glancing blow. Hit points are about providing a way for that kind of "luck" to be systematic and predictable enough that you can play a game.

And more over, the spartans could be heard carterizing their wounds and binding them, something that our healing wind using friend wouldn't have to. And Inigo is another that keeps being brought up. But at the end of the "second wind" he's still stabbed in the guts and Boromir is still filled with arrows.

Boromir is also dead. Sorry, thanks for playing.

Inigo, stabbed in the guts or not, is running around, dispatching people and jumping out a window onto a waiting horse.

I'm not saying the character who uses healing surges is somehow magically "uninjured." What I am saying is that he is not, in the least bit, combat-impaired. He may have scratches (healing nicely thank you), bruises, or even a couple deep cuts that have been bandaged, cauterized, or what have you. He probably can't keep doing this for weeks on end (that's part of what I think between adventure "downtime" is for). But for the course of the single story of one adventure, he can recover sufficiently to be considered "healed" or "at full strength."

Now I have no problem with having hitpoints represent fatigue and the ability to defend oneself. But it that's the case tell me and if that's the case why does second wind persist? And why does divine healing use up the same sort of reserve as your 'cinematic' sort of thing?

Because most people don't care whether hit points represent fatigue or actual cuts and bruises. What matters is that the character is at risk of death each and every time he enters a fight. What the character knows, in the end, is that a single arrow (or sword blow) can kill him. On the other hand, if he's a hero, it probably won't be the first arrow.

I'll say it again - you want them to tell you what hit points are. But, for purposes of the game, they're deliberately abstract. Hit points represent your ability to turn what ought to be a lethal blow into a nonlethal one. Similarly, second wind and healing surges represent your ability to recover from seemingly serious injuries. That means you don't REALLY know what's happened until the dice resolve the situation.

Was that hit serious? I don't know...what was the outcome? Was it a critical hit that reduced the character to negative hit points? Then it probably was, but maybe it just looked really impressive (causing a spray of blood, striking the character in the face, or whatever). The point is that until the situation is resolved, it's hard to be sure. If it was a serious blow and the PC needed to be stabilized by the party medic, maybe he got a head wound that was bleeding profusely (therefore life-threatening). However, once it's been staunched, how hurt is the PC really?

Like John McClane or Indiana Jones, the PCs might have a lot of really showy injuries, but it doesn't seem to affect their fighting strength much, especially once they get some time to rest. On the other hand, whenever they're ground down like this, you really get the sense that they're in serious danger of losing their lives.

If the heroes finish the adventure pristine and uninjured, and they were never "close to death," it just doesn't seem like they had to work for their victory. That's why hit points are left deliberately abstract enough that you can interpret the characters as having a host of injuries, none of which are, in the end, serious. It maintains dramatic tension as well as keeping suspense in the game.

But hey, it doesn't work for everyone.