D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[eleran]

The problem is that there is not any one answer for what hit points are. And this new approach narrows the freedom to creatively interpret damage to fit the action and feel of the game at hand.

Hit points can be used to exactly model what you have said. But the abstraction in them, until now at least, has allowed for a much wider range of explanations.

The idea that any and every wound that can be dished out can be shaken off and deemed just a scratch fails to be remotely satisfying for the type game I have been playing for years.

Except it is not a new approach. It is precisely the approach Gary Gygax (may he RIP) took in the 1e DMG. I think John Snow mentioned elsewhere it was around page 82 or so. It may be that a lot of people weren't playing it this way in 3e doesn't mean that it wasn't that way.

 

[lutecius]

Do you think people who are "Game Focused" (gamist) can really enjoy playing in games with people who are "Makes Sense" (simulationist) focused?" I don't. I think those two people are playing different games, and mixing them makes it hard for everyone to enjoy themselves.

I don't believe any dnd player is 100% one way or the other. Otherwise they would be playing abstract strategy games or doing some diceless collective storytelling thing. The two interests just come in different quantities.

Instead of trying to be everything to everyone,

And I think that is exactly what 4e should strive for. D&D, like most rpgs since, has always been a compromise between gamism and simulation. Designers should be coming up with balanced and fun rules that don't stretch believability too much. I think fixing one at the expense of the other is a failure.

4e seems to have focused in on the "Game". If that's not your cup of tea, you may be disappointed. But there are other games out there that are better for "Making Sense", so you might be happier playing one of those.

By that “if you don’t like the changes just go play something else” logic, yes, there would little point in posting here.

 

[billd91]

The problem is that there is not any one answer for what hit points are. And this new approach narrows the freedom to creatively interpret damage to fit the action and feel of the game at hand.

Hit points can be used to exactly model what you have said. But the abstraction in them, until now at least, has allowed for a much wider range of explanations.

The idea that any and every wound that can be dished out can be shaken off and deemed just a scratch fails to be remotely satisfying for the type game I have been playing for years.

Eleran is right in that the 4e approach to hit points is nothing new at all. Hit points have pretty much always been this way.

But I will state again that the main difference between editions is in the recovery of hit points. In earlier editions, some form of magical assistance was required which allowed us a little more freedom in describing some of the loss of hit points as actual and serious wounds. Now, the ability to shrug off damage via healing surges, while they may make sense in an action sequence since adrenaline certainly can enable someone to act as if the nasty wounds they have taken aren't there for a short time, also entails the ability to shrug off things that we would have described as actual injuries without the external explanation of healing magic. And that's what this whole discussion is getting at. What in-game mechanism are we supposed to construct to explain this while still retaining the freedom to characterize some injuries as serious in our fighting descriptions?

To address ByronD's points again, it's not any recharacterization of hit points, it's a recasting of how they are recovered that is the fundamental issue as I see it.

 

[Ourph]

Eladin: I can accept that athletes have reserves of energy beyond what they would normally use in a given day and if we accept hitpoints as the ability to defend one's self and resist damage. I don't have a problem with that assumption either. I just want to know what is actually happened.

If you accept the statement that "HP are an abstraction" then you have to accept that the rulebooks aren't going to tell you this. The minute they DO tell you "what actually happened", HP aren't an abstraction anymore.

The beauty of that abstraction is that you (the player) can interpret the metagame occurence of losing or regaining hit points however you want within the reality of the game world.

My personal recommendation is to stop thinking that your character has any idea how many HP he has remaining at any given time in a fight. Based on what I've seen of the 4e rules so far, I would argue that a character who has lost hp but isn't bloodied doesn't feel any different than a character at full hp. A character who is barely bloodied doesn't feel any different than a character who has only 1 hp remaining. A character who experiences a Second Wind simply has the strength to continue fighting, he doesn't necessarily feel some sort of power "surge", he's just not giving up yet. A character who goes into negative HP and then recovers feels the same way a boxer feels when he goes down, but gets up before the count of 10. Yes, he got hurt, but he's still able to go on. HP are just a way for the players to determine when the fight is over for a particular character. IMO, it's counterproductive to use them as an indicator of how a particular character feels or experiences the gameworld. Imagine your character feeling and experiencing the gameworld however you want, irrespective of what his HP total is at any given moment.

 

[HatWearingFool]

But it that's the case tell me and if that's the case why does second wind persist? And why does divine healing use up the same sort of reserve as your 'cinematic' sort of thing?

Many of the fantasy books I read talk about how magical healing drains you. So even though you are "Healed" you are left feeling very tired. Alot of this is usually presented as Magic simply accelerating your bodies natural process. And therefore your own body is still fueling the healing process. I actually like the idea of "Sorry your body just can't handle anymore magically healing".

 

[AndrewRogue]

The 6 hour rest, why can I recover all of my wounds once a day by resting for six hours?

Erec laughed before taking a long drag on the flask in his hand, his massive frame bouncing. "And that's when I grabbed the golem and just smashed its head into the wall! Whole damn thing broke!"

Destiny smiled. "But didn't it get a few good hits on you first? I remember watching it land a couple blows at least."

Erec snorted. "Bruises, at worst. They hurt and they're slowing me down a bit, but gimme a few hours, some good food, some drink and a chance to sleep. I'll be just like new!"

Destiny shook her head. "You really are a monster, Erec."

What is it about Daylies that makes them so?

"Graaaaaaah!" Kiyone's blade slammed into the ground with devestating force, literally shattering the floor beneath her, the mere shockwave tearing the surrounding area apart. The power of the blow was unbelievable, but so was the toll on the 'Kin girl. Even as she recovered to renew her attack on the, now, dismayed goblins, a slight tremor in her body was evident. She was even breathing hard. It'd be some time before she could manage that again.

Alternately

Hioshi looked out grimly at the field of the undead advancing on him. He hadn't wanted to use this technique so early, but it looked like he had no choice. Focusing inward, he invoked a small prayer to the ancient spirits, asking them to use him as a vessel for their power. To expend whatever energy they needed to destroy the shambling horde.

It would drain him, yes, but it would eliminate the majority of the threat. He could only hope that his sword would be enough to deal with whatever remained after.

Or encounters?

Terry smiled as he slipped inside his enemy's guard. He'd been waiting for this chance all battle. Sure, they wouldn't fall for it again soon, but, if it worked right, he wouldn't need them to.

Alternately

The Capuchin leapt forward, grabbing onto the warrior and delivering a powerful knee to his gut. Twisting, it slammed him into the ground, before lifting him into the air and hurling him once more to the ground. The move was absolutely devestating, knocking the wind (and possibly the conciousness) from his body.

Keith grinned. "Why don't you come over here and do that to a couple of these guys?" he shouted as he deflected an attack, countering with a barrage of crossbow bolts.

"It is exhausting. Give me some time to catch my breath!" The Capuchin yelled back playfully, delivering a stunning roundhouse kick to a warrior who tried to capitalize on its seeming distraction. "You should try it! See how hard it is!"

Why?

What I'm trying to get at some level here is that, well, the answer depends on the move and the character and the situation, I think. Which makes perfect sense to me. People do things in different ways, and react in different ways. Which is why they give you a wide variety of suggestions for how these things work. There doesn't really need to be a universal answer for it, and I think it is best left as a matter for individual characters to determine.

 

[Dausuul]

If you accept the statement that "HP are an abstraction" then you have to accept that the rulebooks aren't going to tell you this. The minute they DO tell you "what actually happened", HP aren't an abstraction anymore.

This is misunderstanding the nature of abstraction. What you're describing here is not "abstract," it's "undefined."

Your Charisma score is an abstraction. It encompasses such things as physical attractiveness, social graces, force of personality, and magnetism.

When you use your Charisma to influence somebody, what happens? Well, they may have been seduced by your good looks, impressed by your breeding and manners, daunted by your forceful presence, drawn to your magnetic personality, or some mixture of the above. Charisma being the abstraction that it is, there's no way to know which of those factors were involved or to what extent. You the player are free to choose whichever fits your character.

What you do know, however, is that some of those factors were at work. The rules do not say whether the person was influenced by your pretty face or by your charming words, but in the absence of a successful attack roll, they weren't influenced by you whacking them over the head. Whacking people over the head is not one of the factors that is abstracted into Charisma; there are other mechanics to handle that.

Furthermore, the mechanical effects of Charisma are in line with things that could reasonably be accomplished through the factors that make up Charisma. Your Charisma lets you bend other people to your will. It does not let you carry heavy loads, because that is not something you could reasonably achieve by means of good looks, charming manners, and so forth.

So the question is, what are the factors that are abstracted into hit points and healing surges? I'm not asking for an answer on this--we've seen quite a few put forward already--but pointing out that it is a legitimate question and that merely saying, "It's an abstraction," is not a sufficient answer.

 

[Wormwood]

D&D does promote the same kind of semi-farcical, over-the-top, and violence-solves-conflicts approach to narrative. I happen to enjoy this approach and I'm sure I'm not alone.

You're not.

And it looks like we're in charge.

 

[Grossout]

My vote goes to the pro rasslin' comparison (never thought of that one before), and everything Wormwood says - I seem to agree with every one of your (often short) posts, bro.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

OOC: I used a healing surge, and gained back part of my hit points.
IC: What just happened?

An event occured, what was the Observable Result

In some cases (particularly with the healing surges) there may not be an observable result at all. A healing surge might be described like this...

After several frenetic seconds fighting back and forth with the ogres, Ferdick could still not push past them. Backing off for a moment, he wiped the blood out of his eye and flung it to the ground with a flick of his fingers before gripping tight his trusty sword and essaying the corridor again.

The character wiping blood out of his eye could just as easily have been replaced by taking a few deep breaths, or shaking his head vigorously, or cracking his neck loudly, or doing anything else that might take up the type of action required to take a second wind. A magically triggered healing surge will probably be described more spectacularly. But since any given hit point damage is not necessarily an actual wound, the healing doesn't have to be visible at all...

A daily martial maneuver might require a full day's rest (6 hours) to recover because it causes it user some minor muscle damage, or something. (non-magical dailies are, to me, the hardest to describe).

Later
silver