D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[helium3]

It's magic, magic is at its heart fairly mysterious.

Except that in D&D it totally isn't. I've never understood why people want magic to be explicitly codified in the rules but then want the game to somehow make magic "mysterious" and "unpredictable."

If you want magic that is "mysterious and unpredictable" then you should play a game where the rules reflect that. No amount of skill on the part of the DM is going to turn that which is entirely mechanical into something "mysterious."

 

[kenmarable]

Yup... I'll probably explain it thus, "Your characters are the D&D version of every character Bruce Willis has ever played in an action movie."

Ah, a D&D version of Die Hard would be a blast to run. Of course it would need the right set up so that they don't just go floor to floor gutting the bad guys.

 

[Toras]

What happened was that you drew upon a reserve of adrenaline, power, ki, energy, whatever word you would like to use to describe it, to refresh yourself somewhat and to keep on going a little further until more rest can be sought to completely revive yourself.

As for the healing surge to bring you conscious, who's to say when you come conscious you arent still bleeding? In the game do you go out of your way to describe every single cut and scrape? To me, that is the DM's job to immerse you in the game and help suspend your disbelief, not the rules system. Some DMs are better at it than others, just like everything else in life.

And like I said earlier, some peoples ability to suspend disbelief is less fragile than others. That isn't a value judgement, just the way it is I guess.

So my character is now aware of these reserves? Up until this point, you had suggested that being aware of any aspect of Healing Surges was metagaming. As for whatever word, the word in this case is important. But more than that, it has far less to do with DM talent at immersion or suspension of belief. At the core of this is how my character functions. How the thought process works. I could believe that every 12 years the air two hundred feet in the ground turns into gold to explain treasure hordes. All I ask is that the barest attempt be made, so I know what they are going for. So if I run or play in a game I have the slightest clue about their intent.

But I have noted this might be something they resolve. However, from the tone that they've been putting out I doubt they will be answering this question. And there in lies my problem.

 

[billd91]

What does this have to do with rings? Well, rings have traditionally been one of the ways to permanently increase your character's AC. In 4E, the designers could have simply stated "rings never provide a bonus to AC" but I hunch they figured this wouldn't go over very well. By linking the number of rings that could be worn to level, they constrain characters to getting a specific AC bonus at a specific time in the game. I suspect that in 4E, there will be a single ring that will provide a bonus to AC and it won't be +1. It'll be +2 or +3. But that'll be it. And you won't be able to wear it until 10th level. Maybe there will be a better ring that you can wear at 20th level and it'll give you a +4 or a +6 bonus.

This doesn't entirely make sense to me either. Why not make the same ring grow with the wearer? Or make all rings grow with the wearer so that a low level PC can wear 1 or 2 and have low-level powers with them that will be more significant as they grow in power and ability?

Quite frankly, I don't think WotC designers have ever really had a good line on rings in 3.0, 3.5 or what I'm hearing so far in 4e. In 3E, they were essentially wondrous items that happened to require a 12th+ level caster in their manufacture (because that's what you needed to be to even get the feat) and each fit 1 of 2 magic item slots. Otherwise, there was nothing particularly special about them being rings. They were mostly legacy items from earlier editions with no special powers that suggested they needed to be made by such a high level caster, particularly compared to wondrous items that could be manufactured at much lower levels.

 

[cr0m]

There are two ways to look at healing and hit points. You can either start from the hit point loss, and then get caught up in what exactly is happening when they're recovered, or you can start with the healing, and then determine what were the extent of the wounds suffered.

For instance: if your character just got knocked to below zero and used a healing surge to get back up, you describe it as having been knocked out, or the wound being not as bad as it seemed, or gritting his teeth, holding his guts in with one hand and killing the bad guys with the other (Conan-style). It all depends on what kind of game or character you're playing.

The other way causes more headaches and problems for the believability crowd. How did the sword thrust that took 40 hit points and sent my character tumbling go away on its own?

In 3e, there was really only two kinds of healing: on camera, magical healing, which is easy to handwave--no matter how bad the wound is, magic can heal it! And off camera bed rest, which again, is easy to handwave simply because it's off camera and the concept of a hero healing up out of the action is a common genre convention.

4e has knocked the believability crowd for a loop, because suddenly those grievious, 40 hit point wounds are going away without resorting to off camera time or magic. It just takes a mental adjustment... then you're good.

 

[kenmarable]

So I will ask you again, what does Tolkien's writing have to do with the rules for a game.

It's not clinging, it's just simple logical deduction.

A) How magic rings work in Tolkien's world appears believable (for a magical world)
B) Magic rings in 4e appear to work similar to how they do in Tolkien's world*
Therefore, C) How magic rings work in 4e appears believable.

It's not a matter of "D&D must adhere to Tolkien" or Gygax's preferred authors or clinging to the mighty Tolkien. It's actually a very simple logical argument of "If it's believable in one world, why isn't it believe in this other one?"**

* Admittedly, you can argue with the parallel, but the point was simply - the more powerful you are, the more you can access the power of magic items. In that sense, they seem parallel enough.

** Technically, I think it was presented more of as a counterfactual against the argument that being able to access more magic rings as you are more powerful is not believable. But the above makes the same point, and I don't want to be tempted to start full logical notation. Too many years since philosophy grad school.

 

[Dausuul]

I agree those are the questions he wants answered. My issue is that I don't see why his character is thinking in terms of healing surges? Does his character know what hit points are and why some things have more than others? Does he always refer to himself by his class title? Does he and the group he travels with make decisions based on Armor Class?

If you agree to the conceit that hit points are more of an abstraction that actual physical debilitating damage then you can easily explain healing surges in an IC reference.

Can't say I agree with this. You can't just wave the abstraction wand and make all questions go away. Healing surges are an abstraction, sure, we get that. In character, nobody has ever heard of a healing surge. But what are they an abstraction of? What is the game-world, in-character event or series of events that is being abstracted into the healing surge mechanic?

What happened was that you drew upon a reserve of adrenaline, power, ki, energy, whatever word you would like to use to describe it, to refresh yourself somewhat and to keep on going a little further until more rest can be sought to completely revive yourself.

There you are. That's an answer to the question. It happens to be the same one I settled on, and the one most people seem to go for.

To me, that is the DM's job to immerse you in the game and help suspend your disbelief, not the rules system. Some DMs are better at it than others, just like everything else in life.

But the more remote/abstract the rules system is from the in-game reality, the more the DM has to work to fill in that gap. There is a balance to be struck between obsessive, soul-crushing, table-proliferating realism on the one hand, and meaningless, disconnected, board-gaming abstraction on the other.

Too far toward realism, and the narrative is buried in a welter of unimportant details. Too far toward abstraction, and it becomes impossible to connect the events of the metagame to any kind of believable reality.

And like I said earlier, some peoples ability to suspend disbelief is less fragile than others. That isn't a value judgement, just the way it is I guess.

A bit condescending there... this isn't a question of suspending disbelief, it's a question of framing metagame concepts in game-world terms.

 

[eleran]

So my character is now aware of these reserves? Up until this point, you had suggested that being aware of any aspect of Healing Surges was metagaming. As for whatever word, the word in this case is important. But more than that, it has far less to do with DM talent at immersion or suspension of belief. At the core of this is how my character functions. How the thought process works. I could believe that every 12 years the air two hundred feet in the ground turns into gold to explain treasure hordes. All I ask is that the barest attempt be made, so I know what they are going for. So if I run or play in a game I have the slightest clue about their intent.

But I have noted this might be something they resolve. However, from the tone that they've been putting out I doubt they will be answering this question. And there in lies my problem.

I think we are all innately aware of our ability to shake something off or rebound from exhaustion, or however you want to word it. The marathon runner that "hits the wall" but is able to continue running is an example. I used to play a lot of basketball, and I can tell you that after 15 or so minutes of hard running up and down the court in a fast paced game, I am totally sucking wind, but can sit the bench for as little as a minute or 2 and be refreshed enough to go another 15 or so. Of course that was in another life when I was in really good shape. And I imagine most PCs are in pretty good physical shape. In fact, i would argue the PCs are in better shape than all of us here on this dismal little dustball.

Your PC is a hero. He has trained presumably to make himself a better physical specimen than most. He can perform feats of strength, magic, derrign do, highwire walking, that the average Joe cant even fathom. Why is it so hard to picture him having reserves of energy he can call on in times of need?

 

[AndrewRogue]

It is a problem of How and Why, from an IC perspective. What are Healing Surges and why do only I have them? How do they work?

Harkan slammed into the ground, breathing heavily. He had barely managed to block the knight's last blow, but he was sure his arm couldn't take another one of those. His entire body ached. His reactions were slowing down.

"What is wrong, 'hero?'" the knight's voice echoed in the small room. "Are you already ought of energy? Is this all your vows and declarations come to?" The huge man stepped forward, the sound of his armor ringing in the room. "Have you given up? Will you let them all die while you lay there, bemoaning your weakness?"

Gritting his teeth, Harkan shoved himself up from the ground, getting his feet under his body so he could stand. "No."

"Good. You at least want to perish on your feet!" The knight lunged forward, his massive blade arcing through the air slamming straight into the... ground?

Indeed! Harkan had reacted with surprising speed, diving aside of the attack and rolling to his feet. "I have no intention of dying here!" he growled, turning and lunging at the man who mocked his vows, who reminded him of why he was doing why he was fighting.

Sure, he hurt. Sure, he was a little dizzy from the cuts and scrapes that adorned his body. In the face of his needs, though, none of that mattered. His blood burning with adrenaline and his heart gripped by desire, he found it easy to shove aside his feelings of fatigue. Consequences be damned, he would win this fight.

Why can I only wear 1 ring from 10-20 and 2 from 20-30? What happens when a lower level person attempts to dawn one?

"I don't get it!" Arianna grumbled, spinning the ring on her finger. "You can use it. You've shown me how to activate it." She slid it off in frustration. "When I wear it, nothing happens."

"It is a matter of personal will, the strength of your mind and body." Zao-Lot smiled, looking on the young woman he was tutoring. "The magic of a ring is complex, requiring that you harmonize its powers with your spirit." He smiled, taking it back from her. "One day, you'll be strong enough to do it."

The rest is forthcoming.

 

[eleran]

Can't say I agree with this. You can't just wave the abstraction wand and make all questions go away. Healing surges are an abstraction, sure, we get that. In character, nobody has ever heard of a healing surge. But what are they an abstraction of? What is the game-world, in-character event or series of events that is being abstracted into the healing surge mechanic?



There you are. That's an answer to the question. It happens to be the same one I settled on, and the one most people seem to go for.



But the more remote/abstract the rules system is from the in-game reality, the more the DM has to work to fill in that gap. There is a balance to be struck between obsessive, soul-crushing, table-proliferating realism on the one hand, and meaningless, disconnected, board-gaming abstraction on the other.

Too far toward realism, and the narrative is buried in a welter of unimportant details. Too far toward abstraction, and it becomes impossible to connect the events of the metagame to any kind of believable reality.



A bit condescending there... this isn't a question of suspending disbelief, it's a question of framing metagame concepts in game-world terms.

I only used that last phrase because a lot of posters, including I think the OP keep pointing to somethign that breaks their suspension of disbelief. And it has made me think about it and wonder that since others of us dont seem to have this suspension of disbelief then it must be a transient thing that some have more of than others. I dont think it is a value judgement, it doesnt make anyone inferior or superior to each other, merely different.

I am sorry for the apparent condescension, I was struggling with how to word it and couldnt coem up with a better way.