D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[Mallus]

Every see a movie where the hero gets shot? Everyone gasps, the woman who loves him starts crying. It's hopeless now, he's lying there bleeding and not moving. The woman runs over and holds him and yells "No!!"...but he doesn't move. The bad guy laughs, gloats for a while, and then turns to shoot his friend as well. Then suddenly, from behind him the hero who was shot appears and tackles him from behind

Exactly. Pounding the tar out of protagonists only makes them stronger (cf. Rocky Balboa). D&D has always treated protagonists differently (cf. "class levels"). The new system simply seems a little more explicit about it.

 

[Nebulous]

Basically, you die if one of two things happen. If you reach negative in bloody hit points your dead. You don't take damage every round, but you need to roll a natural 20 to stabilize. If you miss your saving throw 3 times (i.e. 3 strikes) your dead so you keep stabilizing every turn. If you do stabilize, you go to 0 and you are unconscious. If someone passes a healing check when they try and heal you and you haven't used your second wind, that can invoke that in you and you get the points back from the surge. When you get hit points back, you start from 0 and add them in. So if I'm -10 and I surge from a Heal check that gives me 5 hit points my new hit point total is 5. Hope I explained that clearly.

so, according to this, a 20 stabilizes you. A successful heal check lets you use a surge IF you have not already used Second Wind. Otherwise, you're at 0 but stable. I like this.

What happens after the encounter?

 

[eleran]

so, according to this, a 20 stabilizes you. A successful heal check lets you use a surge IF you have not already used Second Wind. Otherwise, you're at 0 but stable. I like this.

What happens after the encounter?

After the encounter a cleric, or anyone with healing, could use a power to heal you, bringing you above 0 HP then you could use healing surges to get more HP back.

 

[LostSoul]

How do you explain that?

I don't even care. I just grin and yell "I'm back!" and gank the bastard in the spleen.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Healing surges seem pretty low on the "suspension of disbelief wreckers" for me. The "ring thing" on the other hand has yet to see a single explanation which "works" for me. Kudos for people trying, but to me it's really so blatantly metagame that makes me feel a little ill. I have no doubt that someone will come up with a "working" explanation in 4E's lifetime, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm really not seeing the need for narrative retconning or pure-metagame mechanics here. All that's needed is a recognition that 4E hit points are more a mental/spiritual state than a physical one.

Here's my explanation:

#1: Hit points represent vigor and fighting spirit.
#2: When you get hit, you suffer injuries which sap your fighting spirit. The physical extent of those injuries varies (see below).
#3: A hit which puts you into Bloodied is a superficial gash, flesh wound, stunning blow to the head, et cetera. A hit which puts you into negative hit points is a severe and potentially mortal injury. A hit which puts you down to (negative one-half maximum) hit points is an insta-kill; you were decapitated, stabbed in the heart, et cetera. All other hits are minor cuts and bruises.
#4: Recovery of hit points equals recovery of fighting spirit, not necessarily healing of wounds. Being the bad-ass hero that you are, as long as your spirit is strong, you can fight without substantial penalty even when you've been stabbed in the belly. You'll be staggering and soaked in blood and in a haze of pain and shock, but none of that will cause you actual mechanical penalties.
#5: As a qualifier to #3, if you are knocked down into negative hit points a second time, you may at the DM's discretion succumb to your existing critical wound rather than taking another one. (This prevents the situation where a character is walking around with six different not-quite-mortal wounds.)

So, if you've been taken negative and then used Second Wind and the like to bring yourself back up to full hit points, you've still got a severe wound, and it will be days or weeks before it heals. But your spirit is strong, your will to fight is undiminished. You can keep going despite your wound... unless you get taken down to negatives again.

There. Internally consistent system, no retconning, no metagame-only mechanics. It merely requires accepting that 4th Edition D&D is Cinematic with a capital C.

 

[Derren]

I'm really not seeing the need for narrative retconning or pure-metagame mechanics here. All that's needed is a recognition that 4E hit points are more a mental/spiritual state than a physical one.

Here's my explanation:

#1: Hit points represent vigor and fighting spirit.
#2: When you get hit, you suffer injuries which sap your fighting spirit. The physical extent of those injuries varies (see below).
#3: A hit which puts you into Bloodied is a superficial gash, flesh wound, stunning blow to the head, et cetera. A hit which puts you into negative hit points is a severe and potentially mortal injury. A hit which puts you down to (negative one-half maximum) hit points is an insta-kill; you were decapitated, stabbed in the heart, et cetera. All other hits are minor cuts and bruises.
#4: Recovery of hit points equals recovery of fighting spirit, not necessarily healing of wounds. Being the bad-ass hero that you are, as long as your spirit is strong, you can fight without substantial penalty even when you've been stabbed in the belly. You'll be staggering and soaked in blood and in a haze of pain and shock, but none of that will cause you actual mechanical penalties.
#5: As a qualifier to #3, if you are knocked down into negative hit points a second time, you may at the DM's discretion succumb to your existing critical wound rather than taking another one. (This prevents the situation where a character is walking around with six different not-quite-mortal wounds.)

So, if you've been taken negative and then used Second Wind and the like to bring yourself back up to full hit points, you've still got a severe wound, and it will be days or weeks before it heals. But your spirit is strong, your will to fight is undiminished. You can keep going despite your wound... unless you get taken down to negatives again.

There. Internally consistent system, no retconning, no metagame-only mechanics. It merely requires accepting that 4th Edition D&D is Cinematic with a capital C.

So when a cleric heals someone he doesn't really heal wounds but instead cheers him up? And when a assassin stabs you while you sleep, multiple times, he doesn't really wound you but only makes you more and more sad?

 

[eleran]

So when a cleric heals someone he doesn't really heal wounds but instead cheers him up? And when a assassin stabs you while you sleep, multiple times, he doesn't really wound you but only makes you more and more sad?

Still refuse to quit threadcrapping eh?

 

[Henry]

So when a cleric heals someone he doesn't really heal wounds but instead cheers him up? And when a assassin stabs you while you sleep, multiple times, he doesn't really wound you but only makes you more and more sad?

A little disingenuous to me, if you read past his point #1. People do suffer wounds, but he's saying it's the ability to fight that keeps you from falling over well past the point where you should have. Clerical healing will heal wounds, but it will also soothe tired muscles, warm you when loss of blood has chilled you, and yes, might even make you calmer and more well-centered (after all, it's hard to be logical and level-headed when you're hurting.)

And you've inspired me to add a character-assassin into the lister of Lurker monsters if I play 4e in June.

 

[keterys]

Yep, I've posted it in a couple places, but I'm totally adopting the theory that being at full hp doesn't mean you've healed all your injuries.

I'm looking forward to having characters with scars and injuries that need to be healed over long periods of time, but with full hp.