D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The "ring thing" on the other hand has yet to see a single explanation which "works" for me.

Whatever Rings where in previous editions, in other games, or in other media, in 4E rings are powerful, and if you are not powerful enough yourself, you can't activate their powers. That is basically fluff mandated by the rules, which means it might still not work for you from an "aesthetical" perspective. But at least it isn't internally inconsistent and doesn't create any verisimilitude problems - at least not more then any other arbitrariness resulting from having levels in the first place...

 

[Derren]

if you read past his point #1. People do suffer wounds, but he's saying it's the ability to fight that keeps you from falling over well past the point where you should have.

Yes, but with that systems wound does not matter for HP, only fighting spirit does. Someone can be covered with wounds and still have 100% HP. So when wounds do not reduce the HP why should the removal of those wounds raise the HP?

You see, this system too is not internally consistent. And it doesn't have to be, this HP healing is not a big issue (if WotC really removed the 20 = instant healing). The only major problem left is the apparent lack of CdG.

 

[Dausuul]

So when a cleric heals someone he doesn't really heal wounds but instead cheers him up? And when a assassin stabs you while you sleep, multiple times, he doesn't really wound you but only makes you more and more sad?

Clerical healing both heals wounds and restores spirit. Restoring hit points can be accompanied by healing wounds, it just doesn't have to be.

As far as assassins stabbing you when you sleep, the issue there has nothing to do with how you explain hit points. If 4E lacks a coup de grace mechanic, then this situation will have nonsensical results no matter what hit points represent. An assassin should be able to murder a sleeping person with a single blow.

Anyone know whether 4E has coup de graces or not? Seems like it ought to--paralysis is supposedly less common than it used to be, so the coup de grace mechanic can be correspondingly more deadly. (I always thought it was silly that in 3E, a wizard with a dagger and a low Strength could sit there for upwards of a minute sawing on the throat of a high-level fighter before said fighter finally failed a save and died.)

Yes, but with that systems wound does not matter for HP, only fighting spirit does. Someone can be covered with wounds and still have 100% HP. So when wounds do not reduce the HP why should the removal of those wounds raise the HP?

Wounds and loss of fighting spirit both result from taking a hit in battle. Healing and restoration of fighting spirit both result from a Cure Light Wounds spell. It's not that healing produces restored hit points, it's that a third element (the CLW spell) produces them both.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Whatever Rings where in previous editions, in other games, or in other media, in 4E rings are powerful, and if you are not powerful enough yourself, you can't activate their powers. That is basically fluff mandated by the rules, which means it might still not work for you from an "aesthetical" perspective. But at least it isn't internally inconsistent and doesn't create any verisimilitude problems - at least not more then any other arbitrariness resulting from having levels in the first place...

I can see this.

The Ring of Power placed on a mannequin will do nothing because it has no will.
In the hands of country hobbits, it allows them to turn invisible.
In the hands of someone like Gandhalf, Saruman or Galadriel, it will grant enough power to overthrow Sauron.

 

[Seule]

As I see it, the original question included the 'will the 4e rules include IC justifications for the OOC rules' clause. Regardless of the heroic work some are going through to provide that IC justification, we can't know the answer until the rules come out (barring a leak somewhere). I look at the rules and say to myself "Looks like that could be justified. I wonder how good a job they'll do." I then move on, because there's nothing more to say until I see the books.

--Penn

 

[eleran]

Yes, but with that systems wound does not matter for HP, only fighting spirit does. Someone can be covered with wounds and still have 100% HP. So when wounds do not reduce the HP why should the removal of those wounds raise the HP?

You see, this system too is not internally consistent. And it doesn't have to be, this HP healing is not a big issue (if WotC really removed the 20 = instant healing). The only major problem left is the apparent lack of CdG.

I have a radical idea Derren. Instead of constantly sniping at everyone elses feeble attempts to explain to you how HPs work as an abstraction and why they don't need more than an overnight rest to heal up, why don't you use your infinite wisdom to explain to us how you think they work and how they should be healed up?

 

[Piratecat]

I am a HUGE Tolkien fan, as you would know if you didn't get your panties in a bunch and lash out with a post because I didn't blow smoke up Tolkien's ass, but I don't need his work crapping all over my D&D sessions unless I am running a Middle-Earth campaign (something I would like to do one day).

We're tired of telling you not to insult people or be offensive. Look for an email.

 

[AllisterH]

Healing surges seem pretty low on the "suspension of disbelief wreckers" for me. The "ring thing" on the other hand has yet to see a single explanation which "works" for me. Kudos for people trying, but to me it's really so blatantly metagame that makes me feel a little ill. I have no doubt that someone will come up with a "working" explanation in 4E's lifetime, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Hmm?

Would you consider the same thing in Tolkein's LotR? Seriously, am I the only one that read the Simarillion?

In the LotR referred to obliquely and mentioned directly in the Silmarillion, the One Ring is level limited. The difference is that the ring itself is so powerful that the invisibility power is available to anyone but to access to the higher ring functions, you have to be strong enough ("level") yourself.

Its mentioned IIRC in the Silmarillion that at least for the Elven Rings of Power, not any old elf can use them and pretty much only Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf himself could mastter them.

The idea that to use an item, you have to be powerful yourself is not exactly a new idea in fiction. I've seen the same thing in Terry Brooks, Shannara series and it is pretty common in anime fantasy works.

WOTC itself tried something similar with Weapons of Legacy, great idea, poor execution.

 

[The Little Raven]

I don't even care. I just grin and yell "I'm back!" and gank the bastard in the spleen.

A man after my own heart.

 

[Wormwood]

The idea that to use an item, you have to be powerful yourself is not exactly a new idea in fiction. I've seen the same thing in Terry Brooks, Shannara series and it is pretty common in anime fantasy works.

Oh now you've done it!