D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Here's my explanation of why I feel that 4th edition healing is better than previous editions. I already typed it out once, but since multiple threads keep getting started about the same topic, I'm going to quote myself here, because I really don't feel like typing this out again when I feel it turned out about right the first time.

Actually, it increases my suspension of disbelief, because it shows that hit points aren't increasing resistance of meat -- they represent your skill, staying power, morale, and general 'sharpness.' The idea of someone being hacked 15 times with a sword and still being alive, never mind healing, is just about as laughable an idea as I can think of.

Take the fight between Hector and Achilles in "Troy," for example. Regardless of what you think of the movie, it's the perfect illustration that hit points are NOT wound points. By the end of the fight, Hector is exhausted, demoralized, and at a disadvantage even though he's barely taken a scratch. In short, he started out with 100 hit points (for example), and now is at 5 hit points. One more hit is going to cause physical damage and kill him, because he has no fighting energy (hit points) left to deflect/avoid it. And that's what happens.

Hector lost most of his hit points without being wounded thirty times. The only serious wound was the one that pushed him past 0 hit points and killed him.

If he'd had the chance to rest overnight, he would definitely have been fighting fit again the next day. If he'd had the chance to rest 6 hours, he would probably have been able to put up a pretty good fight again.

And we won't even consider the suspension of disbelief needed to accept a hit point concept that has a superb fighter walk away from EVERY fight with dozens of gaping wounds. If that were the case, we'd have to assume that armor is very, very weak and ineffective, and that parrying and dodging were never invented in the D&D world.

Now, I grant you falling damage. Perhaps it's best solved by having these damage sources that can't be avoided by skill deal Constitution damage rather than hit point damage ....

Edit: oh yes, and I remember a zillion threads from the old Wizards boards, pre-4e-announcement, complaining at how the then-current healing system destroyed suspension of disbelief because it was implying that hit point damage was ALL "meat damage" and not "combat readiness damage." A substantial number of vocal people loathed the concept and didn't hesitate to make that known. It looks like WotC responded.

 

[Li Shenron]

Either the game is fun because the rules come support the playstyle of D&D really well and the math works well OR the game is made to make complete sense in which case you are going to run into game balance problems due to changing the rules to "make sense".

Not at all IMHO. I've played OD&D and 3.0 and in different ways they allowed me to enjoy all those qualities, being enough fun, enough balanced, and enough believable. The most fun for me is in the middle. If 4e shifts significantly from the middle, it will be certainly less fun for me.

 

[Derren]

4e is no different than 1e in this regard. If you are truly unhappy with the damage modeling system for D&D, there's nothing that the 4e design team can do for you. May I recommend Rollmaster as an alternative? From what I understand, it has a very detailed and comprehensive injury and damage system, and supports the same kind of heroic fantasy role-playing (within the confines of that damage system) as D&D.

--G

And like many others you take the "all or nothing" strawman approach.
"D&D never had a completely realistic HP system so its HP can be completely unbelievable". No middle ground.
The 4E HP system is much more unbelievable than the 3E one. Constant surges of HP? Being able to stand up in good condition after a lethal battle without outside help? Recovering all HP after a 6hours rest but only once a day?
Either HP is stamina etc, then you should be able to recover them multiple times per day when you rest or they are physical but then 6 hours of rest doesn't make sense. No way how you turn it it is unbelievable.

What you and many others forget (or ignore) is that I do not want that 4E is a 100% realistic simulation, but it should at least be as believable as 3E and here 4E fails already because it is less believable.

 

[eleran]

And like many others you take the "all or nothing" strawman approach.
"D&D never had a completely realistic HP system so its HP can be completely unbelievable". No middle ground.
The 4E HP system is much more unbelievable than the 3E one. Constant surges of HP? Being able to stand up in good condition after a lethal battle without outside help? Recovering all HP after a 6hours rest but only once a day?
Either HP is stamina etc, then you should be able to recover them multiple times per day when you rest or they are physical but then 6 hours of rest doesn't make sense. No way how you turn it it is unbelievable.

What you and many others forget (or ignore) is that I do not want that 4E is a 100% realistic simulation, but it should at least be as believable as 3E and here 4E fails already because it is less believable.

Why is 3e any better than 4e in this regard? You just make blanket statement after blanket statement without backing them up. What makes 3e, or any other previous edition better in the HP quandary?

I, for one, don't find 3e believable at all either. So 4e is no big stretch. I dont think 4e is more believable than 3e, I also do not find it less believable.

I merely find your arguments disingenuous.

 

[Steely Dan]

And like many others you take the "all or nothing" strawman approach.

Many would say you're taking the lead on that one.

It is true; hp in D&D has always been a combination of stamina, toughness and luck etc.

Nothing has changed.

 

[Derren]

Why is 3e any better than 4e in this regard? You just make blanket statement after blanket statement without backing them up. What makes 3e, or any other previous edition better in the HP quandary?

Ok, if I have to explain everything to you...

HP have more to do with injury than with fatigue (while not being completely physical. In 3E it was a combination, in 4E its just stamina). It was long term damage unless healed magically. Also when you were unconcusionous and bleeding you could not simply stand up like in 4E and continue normally without outside help. And you also could not simply hum "Eye of the Tiger" or "think about the children" and suddenly you are healed again as if nothing happened.
And finally resting made sense. Your body regenerated slowly (although the amount was out of poroportion from teh HP gain). In 4E recovering all stamina with a 6 hours rest also makes sense, but only being able to do this once a day does not.
And I can regain stamina just fine without sleeping so "You are not tired" doesn't make sense.

 

[Thyrwyn]

#1: You don't get a lot of opportunities to use some of the martial powers, as they require a lot of work to set up and the circumstances have to be right. It just so happens to work out that you get about one chance per encounter to use some powers, and one chance per day to use others. (A nice explanation that solves most of the problems, but does not explain how characters know in advance how many uses of their powers they'll get.)

This is the one I prefer to go with. The thing is that the characters don't know how many 'uses' they have. The character may have been trying the maneuver all day ("My Swordmaster said I should work on my Passing Attack . . . "). The character may continue to try the maneuever after they have succeeded, to no avail. Not every feint, dodge or blow is simulated in the combat rules - only the relevant ones.

The player knows how many uses the character has and decides when it should be relevant.

To the character, it would look something like this:
"OK, time to set up my Passing Attack, here we go. . . .rats, he didn't fall for it - ooh, but he knocked his buddy's shield out of line. . ." <<<Cleave>>>

To the Player it looks like:
"That other Kobold is probably just a minion, I'll save my Passing Attack and just use Cleave this time."

 

[Propheous_D]

While there are a few fluff changes that do not precisely thrill me. (As a fan of planescape, alignments, and a few other things that have gone the way of the dodo). But I have come to the conclusion that my greatest problem with 4e and one that might indeed be fixed when June comes round and I find myself thumbing through the new book.

It is a problem of How and Why, from an IC perspective. What are Healing Surges and why do only I have them? How do they work?

Why can I only wear 1 ring from 10-20 and 2 from 20-30? What happens when a lower level person attempts to dawn one?

The 6 hour rest, why can I recover all of my wounds once a day by resting for six hours? What is it about Daylies that makes them so? Or encounters? Why?

A justification that doesn't revolve around I'm the PC or the ooc design decisions. It really doesn't have to be much, a token effort would be fine. Just something.

Healing and Magic

I look at the magic system as more natural system. instead of storing vast amounts of power with in ourselves we have well springs of power that exist with in our body. We through training and prayer harmonize and create pathways of access to those powers. Some of these wellsprings are plentiful and easily accessed and do not strain ourselves to use while others are fleeting and harder to access.

At Will:

At will powers are veritable wonders of incredibility. Once you have mastered the techniques to access them they represent literally limitless pools of internal power that replenish just through breathing. Its a warm glow that you can just think about and touch.

Encounter:

Encounter powers are more formidable. They may not be more effective then at will powers but they are harder to access and more difficult to release. Like an excited puppy constantly pulling at its masters chain once off the leash they require effort to harness again. Bringing your body back into harmony with that power requires atleast a little concentration and adjustment. It may be that you need to rub a joint to make sure you don't permanently damage it the next time you swing, or it may be a recess of your mind you must commune with again.

Daily:

These powers are the viscous beasts of the magical world. They are so hard to harmonize with that it can take quite a while to reach them and they require you to be sharp and fully rested. Some can only be reached in your dreams and through total submersion into your subconcious mind. They are not so much things you conciously control as abilities revealed and harnessed from your subconcious. Even using these abilities can cause physical harm to yourself and so require strict focus and concentration.

Healing surges:

These represent your total vitality and health. Once drained you are on your own and on your last leg. Like most things they can be overwhelmed and also helped. Leaders can allow you tap into these reserves even after you have spent your energy and failed yourself. Thier sympathetic abilities reaching deep with in you and drawing out your inner strength. Going beyond this natural vitality you possess is no longer an easy thing even if accessing it has become easier of later. Ony through sacrifice or great magic will you be able to rejuvinate yourself with out taking away something from this pool of inner strength.

That is my take on the whole magic healing surge kinda thing in a IC and how things have changed.

Healing up at the end of each day:

This is more of a dynamic change. This can't really be easily explained away just as the level drain mechanic can not be explained away easily. Essentially I look at this as an improvement and I don't think it should be taken as anything more then we were all ways able to do this. However if you want to explain this I can think of a good excuse.

The lack of unified energy or the presence of the previous unified energy stunted the spirit of the people who lived under it or with out it. This addition or release has lifted the spirits of the people and allowed them to flow more freely. With this has come the advent of those who seem to heal un-naturally fast and are indominable of spirit. Thier increased spirit allows them to achieve things that were never thought possible in the old world.

This goes into the adventurers are not everyone. You may think your normal but you quickly realize that this is not the case. Wether its meticlorians (sp?) or the blessing of the gods your life is anything but normal.

Magic Items:

With the change in magic as it flows through the world many items and relics have been destroyed altered and in some cases not even recognizable. The new flow of magic through us into these items has altered thier use. Some have become easier to command, while others have become tasks that can take a life time. Were once we could cover ourselves from head to foot with glowing wonder now only a scattered hand full of items can be warn.

The explaination is that either we lack the sufficient internal reserves to access these items. So we can no longer command the vast array of items and control them as simply as before. Or you can go with the fact that too many items cause serious effects. The overlapping fields of magic become unstable and we are unable to harmonize them with ourselves to take advantage of all thier destinct uses. It can even be described as an overload and the clashing fields of power cause headaches and body aches as they wreak havoc on ourselves

Hope some of those ideas work for your campaign if anyone had them before me please take the credit I didn't read the thread.

 

[eleran]

Ok, if I have to explain everything to you...

HP have more to do with injury than with fatigue (while not being completely physical. In 3E it was a combination, in 4E its just stamina). It was long term damage unless healed magically. Also when you were unconcusionous and bleeding you could not simply stand up like in 4E and continue normally without outside help. And you also could not simply hum "Eye of the Tiger" or "think about the children" and suddenly you are healed again as if nothing happened.
And finally resting made sense. Your body regenerated slowly (although the amount was out of poroportion from teh HP gain). In 4E recovering all stamina with a 6 hours rest also makes sense, but only being able to do this once a day does not.
And I can regain stamina just fine without sleeping so "You are not tired" doesn't make sense.

Thanks for being condescending...

I don't find that any more believable. I do however find it highly annoying and always have. I will sacrifice believability for less annoying any day of the week.

I don't want to play a game that revolves around the group sitting in a cave healing its wounds. I want to play a game that revolves around a group of heros building a relationship and carving out a story in an interesting and possibly mysterious world.

When I read a piece of fantasy literature I tend to skip over the pages if it dwells on the protagonists sitting in a cave somewhere binding wounds and sleeping off the damage. If I am going to skip those pages anyway, then they may as well sleep off that damage overnight and get on with the story.

 

[Propheous_D]

Ok, if I have to explain everything to you...

HP have more to do with injury than with fatigue (while not being completely physical. In 3E it was a combination, in 4E its just stamina). It was long term damage unless healed magically. Also when you were unconcusionous and bleeding you could not simply stand up like in 4E and continue normally without outside help. And you also could not simply hum "Eye of the Tiger" or "think about the children" and suddenly you are healed again as if nothing happened.
And finally resting made sense. Your body regenerated slowly (although the amount was out of poroportion from teh HP gain). In 4E recovering all stamina with a 6 hours rest also makes sense, but only being able to do this once a day does not.
And I can regain stamina just fine without sleeping so "You are not tired" doesn't make sense.

Your statement is complete opinion (yours) and nothing more. You base your statement solely on the healing mechanics of 3E and the assumption that physical injury was why you needed that long. HOWEVER, as a DM I could say that the shock and awe of your encounter left you completely unscathed physically but you had a mental breakdown and need to recover from that. Thus physical injury is removed and morale is supplanted. You only have to wait for the healing mechanics to come in.

Personally if I have a mental breakdown or injury that requires me to stop adventuring for a period of time I want it to story related and provided by the DM and not a game mechanic that holds me back.