D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[eleran]

I would first like to thank Propheus_D and others for their responses. And I'm going to assume erelan's comments are not directed at me. I would hardly call myself a simulationist, though I do have minimum make sense requirements for games, especially with D&D.

Actually, yes it was directed primarily at you because of what you said in the OP. You have a problem IC (in character) answering questions about healing surges, etc.

And I have a problem with those questions being asked in character. It seems a bit metagamish to me and I am trying to understand where your coming from and why it is a problem for a character?.

If you had said you had the problem OoC I would have understood completely that you as a player have a hard time reconciling yourself to the rule changes or the fluff changes. That I can understand and appreciate.

 

[FourthBear]

No injury in 3e was ever more than 5 days of bandaging and hot soup from complete repair.

And, of course, *none* of them ever resulted in penalties to actions without on-the-spot DM rulings. The hit point system in 3e was inconsistent in its application and explanations. Hit points were sometimes physical injuries, sometimes the ability to avoid physical injury. However, they recovered at a rate that was too slow for the ability to avoid physical injury and too fast for actual physical injuries. Further, they clearly did not model actual physical injuries, which would result in penalties. The 4e system appears to be more consistent with a fantasy action model of hit points as the ability to avoid damage and some cosmetic injuries that fantasy heroes often complain of, but rarely result in significant hindrance to their kicking butt. 4e hit points and healing model fantasy action better than physical injuries, while the 3e system does a poor job of modeling either. That's not to say that the previous system didn't work in play if you largely handwaved the explanations and just played the game. But if you prefer to model more realistic injuries and wounds, I don't think any edition of D&D would survive casual scrutiny.

 

[mhensley]

Yup... I'll probably explain it thus, "Your characters are the D&D version of every character Bruce Willis has ever played in an action movie."

Including Unbreakable?

 

[Scarbonac]

Yup... I'll probably explain it thus, "Your characters are the D&D version of every character Bruce Willis has ever played in an action movie."

More like pro rasslers...


Imagine, if you will...Chief Jay Strongbow is in the ring with Nikolai Volkoff; the crafty Russki has sucker-punched the noble Chief, knocking him to the mat. He grabs the Chief's arm, twisting it in a horrific Cossack Ripple. The Chief writhes in pain, unable to fight, unable to stand...then, low at first, the chanting of the audience begins "Go, Chief! Go, Chief, Go, Chief, Go, Chief, GO!"

Jay takes heart, as he feels the adulation wash over him ("The People...I must not let the People down-!"). Vigor flows into his weakened and brutalized limbs...pain is no more!

"Go, Chief! Go, Chief, Go, Chief, Go, Chief, GOGoGO!"

The stalwart Strongbow struggles to one knee...then his right foot begins to rise and fall rhythmically. As the voice of the crowd surges, the Chief struggles to his feet ("Where is this energy coming from?") going into his patented war-dance. Volkoff is shocked, terrified as the Chief "dances" out from under the savage Russian's death-grip and hurls him into the ropes.

As he rebounds("Sacred Marx, preserve your Cold Warrior!"), the Chief takes him down with a mighty Tomahawk Chop to the throat! The stunned Muscovite collapses as the Chief finishes his war-dance around his prostrate form.

Good has won, this day.

 

[billd91]

What you forget or ignore is that 4e is much more believable* than 3e, and this is one of the areas where it succeeds.


glass.

(* From what we have seen so far).

That may be your assessment. It is certainly not mine.
That said, the difference in hit points and healing surges makes neither game more believable for me. I don't really prefer 4e's model over 3.5's, though I think I could find some attraction in a middle-ground between the two.

 

[eleran]

Including Unbreakable?

Can I be Hudson Hawke?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

More like pro rasslers...

That's actually a pretty good analogy.

D&D does promote the same kind of semi-farcical, over-the-top, and violence-solves-conflicts approach to narrative. I happen to enjoy this approach and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[billd91]

I don't want to play a game that revolves around the group sitting in a cave healing its wounds. I want to play a game that revolves around a group of heros building a relationship and carving out a story in an interesting and possibly mysterious world.

But why can't they build their relationships and so on while sitting in a cave and healing their wounds? I can certainly imagine a party of explorers taking a day or two of resting time to talk about their aspirations, share stories of their homelands, and so on while recovering for the next big push through the dungeon.
It sounds to me more like you want a game that revolves around a group of heroes building a relationship while engaging in pulse-pounding action.

 

[Pbartender]

More like pro rasslers...

Exactly... Another good example.

 

[Imp]

3e damage was NOT long term damage. Why do people keep saying this?

(snip)

No injury in 3e was ever more than 5 days of bandaging and hot soup from complete repair.

Which is, at least, some recovery time, and is fine with those of us in the "throw me a flipping bone here" school of quote unquote realism. If we had been more demanding than that, we'd have gone over to a VP/WP system, or Rolemaster, as one commenter chirpily reminds us. Hp loss degraded combat ability slightly (well, the character could do everything he could do before, but was more likely to get killed) and took time to recover from unless particular measures were taken and that was generally enough to play along.