D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[Wystan]

[snip]
In 3E maybe but in 4E everyone will use his 1-2 encounter powers first and then use his at will power over and over again. Its like everyone in 4E has as many combat options available to them than 3E fighters.

Having Played 4th Edition at the D&D Experience, I can plainly say that not every encounter power is used in every encounter, nor is it used first. Heck, I saw some people choose to use plain old melee attacks at times.....

 

[lutecius]

I'm a huge Tolkien fan, but no, I'm not kidding, Tolkien was not writing his story with game rules in mind, so it has nothing to do with the rules of a game.

Few writers were. I think what is being discussed is how these rules would affect a fantasy world’s assumptions.

Even Gary Gygax said he was not particularly fond of Tolkien's writing, but put in Tolkienesque aspects to please certain fans.

The original D&D concept was more influenced by Conan, Grey Mouser, Elric, Three Hearts etc.

And yet D&D’s default setting, be it GH, FR, DL or even what we know of PoL, is closer to Middle Earth than Hyboria, Lankhmar or Anderson’s parallel worlds.

And even then, people have to stop comparing D&D to novels written by people who have nothing to do with D&D. D&D has becomes its own brand of fantasy at this point.


Really, people, stop clinging.

So I will ask you again, what does Tolkien's writing have to do with the rules for a game.

I am not saying that D&D should be based on LotR (I would like a bigger departure actually), just that it’s perfectly valid to bring it up when discussing “believability” in a fantasy world so heavily inspired by Tolkien, especially concerning tropes inspired by prior traditions themselves.

The point of magic items and rings in particular, whether in folklore or modern fiction, is that they grant powers to lay people (or bring curse upon them for that matter)
The idea of a shiny *magic* ring that has no effect whatsoever is counterintuitive and kind of a let down to me.
Now if said ring had even toned down powers from the start. It would preserve both balance and the mythic feel. In this sense I like the LotR approach.

 

[glass]

What you and many others forget (or ignore) is that I do not want that 4E is a 100% realistic simulation, but it should at least be as believable as 3E and here 4E fails already because it is less believable.

What you forget or ignore is that 4e is much more believable* than 3e, and this is one of the areas where it succeeds.


glass.

(* From what we have seen so far).

 

[LostSoul]

Do you think people who are "Game Focused" (gamist) can really enjoy playing in games with people who are "Makes Sense" (simulationist) focused?" I don't. I think those two people are playing different games, and mixing them makes it hard for everyone to enjoy themselves.

Instead of trying to be everything to everyone, 4e seems to have focused in on the "Game". If that's not your cup of tea, you may be disappointed. But there are other games out there that are better for "Making Sense", so you might be happier playing one of those.

I would be happier if D&D had more of a "Thematic" (narrativist) focus, but it doesn't. Other games do. I'll enjoy those other games for what they are, and D&D for what it is.

 

[Cadfan]

3e damage was NOT long term damage. Why do people keep saying this?

What's the best I can come up with? Lets take a dwarf barbarian who rolled an 18 constitution and had it increased to 20 for being a dwarf. Assume they've rolled average on their hit points over the course of their career.

At level 15, they'll have 178 hit points. Each night when they go to sleep, they get 15 hit points back. Each day of full bed rest, they'll get 30 hit points back. If a nonmagical doctor is tending them, they'll get 60 hit points.

So, with nonmagical but professional healing, it takes LESS than 3 days of bedrest to heal a nonmagically augmented maximum hit point dwarf from zero up to maximum hit points.

A character with fewer hit points per level heals even faster.

If we REALLY want to push it, we can give our dwarf an Amulet of Health +6, Improved Toughness, and lets say +6 more constitution from leveling up and from Manuals. Now our dwarf has 283 hit points.

This means that our dwarf will take 5 days to heal from zero hit points up to maximum hit points. Short of unrealistic assumptions like taking Toughness for every feat choice or rolling maximum hit points every level, I can't see a way to bring it past that.

No injury in 3e was ever more than 5 days of bandaging and hot soup from complete repair.

 

[Propheous_D]

Few writers were. I think what is being discussed is how these rules would affect a fantasy world’s assumptions.

And yet D&D’s default setting, be it GH, FR, DL or even what we know of PoL, is closer to Middle Earth than Hyboria, Lankhmar or Anderson’s parallel worlds.

How much of that is the product of commercialization vs realism. Ed's Forgotten Realms is alot Ranchier then the produced FR. Conan is a bit more sexed up and violent then what is commonly protrayed in popular media. Even the Conan movies are a bit subdued and don't protray him near what he is in the books.

I am not saying that D&D should be based on LotR (I would like a bigger departure actually), just that it’s perfectly valid to bring it up when discussing “believability” in a fantasy world so heavily inspired by Tolkien, especially concerning tropes inspired by prior traditions themselves.
The point of magic items and rings in particular, whether in folklore or modern fiction, is that they grant powers to lay people (or bring curse upon them for that matter)
The idea of a shiny *magic* ring that has no effect whatsoever is counterintuitive and kind of a let down to me.
Now if said ring had even toned down powers from the start. It would preserve both balance and the mythic feel. In this sense I like the LotR approach.

Here I think the problem is that you are saying "“believability” in a fantasy world so heavily inspired by Tolkien" though DnD itself is not related to that. Yes there are aspects of it, but DnD should not be judged on a Tolkien beleivability model. The Forgotten realms is so far from Tolkienish that its rediculous. I don't remember Tolkien having a wizard on every corner or magic item stores in every major town. FR has been that way since 2E.

Picking up a magic ring and putting it on does not mean you can tap its power. Its a long held fantasy tradition that things like this require specific things to meet criteria. Take the Sword of Shanara to some its a simple blade but to those who can wield its powers its something all together different. Lets look at the Sword of Truth and how it turned those wielding it into strange creatures subverted by its magic (very tolkienish even).

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I like what 4e is doing with HP and recovery. I believe that it will "play" better in-game, which is the most important thing for me and my groups. I've played more "realistic" systems and they just weren't as fun for the players. I think that the 4e system will be more enjoyable.

 

[lutecius]

I've said this a couple times, but an explanation for healing on a long rest:

There is a strange herb that grows in the verdant liminal spaces between the world and the feywild. It has a different, reverent name in every tongue; in Common, it is Heartbloom. When boiled in water as a tea, its petals grant accelerated healing, such that a good night's rest is enough to bind up most minor wounds.

The stuff is expensive by peasant standards, but a pittance for adventurers - about 2 silver for enough dried herb to make a pot of heartbloom tea. No adventurer or military campaigner would go without it. Occasionally trade in it gets blocked or overrun, as with any other good, but the dried leaves can be stored nearly indefinitely and are stockpiled in most major cities and fortresses (and other Points of Light), so barring a major crisis some can usually be found for reasonable (to an adventurer) prices.

TLDR version: When your party camps they drink some special tea that makes them heal faster as they sleep.

Brings a new meaning to "Adventure Hooks"

At this point, all the justifications given are so abstract, clumsy or far-fetched that this one is as good as any other.
Seriously, I'd go with common potions with a risk of OD after a few shots per day.
Of course I realise that it may not be appropriate for Hasbro's target.

 

[Pbartender]

The way I'll explain it is pretty simple: imagine every boxing match Rocky ever fought.

Yup... I'll probably explain it thus, "Your characters are the D&D version of every character Bruce Willis has ever played in an action movie."

 

[Toras]

I would first like to thank Propheus_D and others for their responses. And I'm going to assume erelan's comments are not directed at me. I would hardly call myself a simulationist, though I do have minimum make sense requirements for games, especially with D&D.

I suspect 2e and previous, with its much lower healing rates and greater chance of horrific damage would fit more as a comparison that 3e. 3e really began the move from damage taken to abstract hitpoints and faster healing, though 4e is a bit more divergent from the injury itself.

Let me be the first to say, I don't care if its modeling luck, stamina, etc. I just want to know that is modeling luck, stamina, etc. And in what manner it is doing so. But let us pursue the assumption that hit points are a measure of one's ability to defend one's self and resist harm. Then by logic, healing surges (poorly names as they are) are a similar effect to the hero shrugging off his fatigue and ignoring minor wounds. Would it then be reasonable to assume that rest does indeed slowly return this to him and the 6 hour requirement is only a necessary abstraction.

Tying into that, couldn't the number of encounter or daily abilities be those that you can attempt without causing yourself harm or fatique. So if you wish to continue using the Horse Cutter Strike, you could but you would deplete your reserves and weaken your ability to fight other enemies. The amount would be a matter of game balance (by the same logic open to all characters). Arcane casters could channel more energy than their body can withstand, perhaps drawing upon their life's energy. Divine casters could open themselves up to more of the divine than their form was ready to handle.

(It assumes hitpoints/healing surges are our primary resource, representing our ability). It would require two things however to work. The first is as outlined, but the second would be allowing for encounter/per day, rather than memorizing a particular ability. That doesn't quite sit for Martial abilities anyway. And since there are no sorcerors, why not?

The ring is perhaps a less clear case, as the character is unaware of their 'level' as a measure of personal power, so why it might work next week and not the previous is certainly a problem. Perhaps rather than having them not work, have them function improperly and require mastery, though why they do and the other items don't would need explaination. Or you could make them dangerous. It could be that magic beyond what you are capable of dealing with can cause you problems. Or even change the character, based on its properties.



This would require 2 things