D&D 4E The problem I've having with 4e.

[eleran]

I'm going to take a different tack in answering your questions.

You claim that you have a hard time thinking about these things In Character. Why is your character wondering why he has healing surges and others (I presume monsters) don't? Shouldn't your character be thankful for whatever it is the gods imbued him with to help keep him alive out in the desolate monster filled world? And why is amazingly self-aware enough to realize that monsters don't have these healing surges, whatever they are?

At what point does your character come to realize that he cant wear a ring before 10th level? Actually I will take it a step back and ask when your character became conscious of levels at all? If your character never runs across a ring before he is 10th lvl how does he even know they wont work for him before that?

I am really sorry for the snark, but I am coming to the conclusion that 1 of 2 things is going on out there in the D&D world. Either some peoples ability to disbelieve is much weaker than others, or a lot of people out there cannot keep themselves from metagaming and claim it is IC thinking and therefore the fault of the rules system.

But, maybe it's just me.

 

[zoroaster100]

I don't have a problem with the ring limitation. Even in Lord of the Rings, it is made clear that rings of power vary in power based on the power of the wearer. A hobbit commoner donning the mighty One Ring merely went invisible, while Sauron (or possibly one of the Wise, such as Gandalf or Galadriel) could use the ring to command armies accross the whole world, raise up a might fortress by magic, enslave all the other wielders of the rings of power, etc. Imagine if the mystic strength of a commoner or ordinary hero was not even enough to activate the invisibility. Maybe even for that smallest power, it requires someone with some mystic knowledge, just as activating the greater powers requires one with much greater mystic knoweldge (Sauron, Gandalf, etc.). I don't see the problem.

 

[Steely Dan]

Even in Lord of the Rings

What does the ego-tripping; self-made English Mythology of one man have to do with the rules of the 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons game?

 

[Nebulous]

I just think of 4e as being a video game. Works for me. I mean, it's just silly fun and imagination, not real life. I'm sure that eventually somewhere, somehow, there will be a 3rd party rulebook that will manipulate the rules into something more "realistic." Until then, i won't sweat it.

 

[lutecius]

What does the ego-tripping; self-made English Mythology of one man have to do with the rules of the 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons game?

I'm not even a Tolkien fan but ... you're kidding, right?

 

[Steely Dan]

I'm not even a Tolkien fan but ... you're kidding, right?

I'm a huge Tolkien fan, but no, I'm not kidding, Tolkien was not writing his story with game rules in mind, so it has nothing to do with the rules of a game.

Even Gary Gygax said he was not particularly fond of Tolkien's writing, but put in Tolkienesque aspects to please certain fans.

The original D&D concept was more influenced by Conan, Grey Mouser, Elric, Three Hearts etc.

And even then, people have to stop comparing D&D to novels written by people who have nothing to do with D&D. D&D has becomes its own brand of fantasy at this point.

Really, people, stop clinging.

So I will ask you again, what does Tolkien's writing have to do with the rules for a game.



P.S. That said I would like to run a Middle-Earth D&D campaign one day.

 

[Dausuul]

Speaking as someone who has wrestled with the same verisimilitude issues, here are the solutions I've found:

It is a problem of How and Why, from an IC perspective. What are Healing Surges and why do only I have them? How do they work?

A "healing surge" is rather misnamed, since it doesn't actually heal you unless granted by divine power. What's happening is that you're summoning up your heroic willpower and soldiering on. In most cases, you haven't taken serious injuries and you're just shrugging off the effects of fatigue and minor wounds. Even if you have been seriously injured, though, you grit your teeth and fight through the pain.

Think of Inigo Montoya in the last fight scene of "The Princess Bride." Every time Inigo says "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die," he's triggering a healing surge--notice how he seems to get stronger each time. His wounds do not miraculously close, but he steels himself to carry on anyway.

And only you have them because most people don't have this kind of raw willpower. When a normal guy takes a dagger to the belly, he's out of the fight.

Why can I only wear 1 ring from 10-20 and 2 from 20-30? What happens when a lower level person attempts to dawn one?

You can don as many rings as you like, at any level. If you have thirty magic rings handy, you can put three on each finger. They just don't do anything for you unless you have enough heroic power to control their magic.

The 6 hour rest, why can I recover all of my wounds once a day by resting for six hours?

Again, as with healing surges, you're not actually healing wounds. You're just recovering your fighting spirit and stamina.

What is it about Daylies that makes them so? Or encounters? Why?

I'll assume you're talking about martial powers here, since divine and arcane powers have always followed fairly arbitrary rules. I haven't seen a really solid IC explanation for the limits on martial powers, but in this case I think there are enough shoddy explanations that you can usually find at least one that's applicable in any given situation.

#1: You don't get a lot of opportunities to use some of the martial powers, as they require a lot of work to set up and the circumstances have to be right. It just so happens to work out that you get about one chance per encounter to use some powers, and one chance per day to use others. (A nice explanation that solves most of the problems, but does not explain how characters know in advance how many uses of their powers they'll get.)

#2: Per-encounter powers require using tricks which your opponents won't fall for twice. (Feasible in some cases, but overall a very shaky explanation. Does not account for why you can't use the same power again against a foe who just joined the fight, or why you can't use the same power against unintelligent enemies, or why you can use the same power against the same foe in two separate encounters, or why two people can both use the same per-encounter power in the same combat against the same enemy. Also does not do anything to explain daily powers.)

#3: Per-encounter and daily powers are tiring. Per-encounter powers you can recover from with a few minutes of rest, but daily powers require six hours' sleep before you're sufficiently recovered to use them again. (A decent explanation, but fails to explain why you can't substitute one daily or per-encounter power for another--that is, if you have Leaping Mantis Corkscrew Twist usable once per encounter, and Rabid Wombat Sting usable once per encounter, how come you can't do two Rabid Wombat Stings instead of one of each?)

#4: You have to mentally prepare yourself and psych yourself up to use these maneuvers, and once you've used them, you've lost that mental edge and have to work to regain it. For per-encounter powers, only a little effort is required to re-create that edge; for daily powers, you need a full night's rest first, like a 3E wizard preparing spells. (This actually covers all the game mechanics, but it's a pretty far-fetched excuse.)

 

[MichaelK]

Coming up with IC explanations has never been a big problem for me and it's something I've been doing since I first starting D&D with the basic set. I'm bothered by the same questions most of the players ask, so I come up with answers of my own for the questions. In fact I'll usually come up with a different one for each campaign and then make those answers relevant to the story.

That said, I think that 4e, with its emphasis against simulationist gaming has many more abstractions that need IC explanation. Without seeing the book it's impossible to say whether these explanations are provided, but if they're not then I think it will hurt some players less experienced at BSing answers to these questions.

While the lack of explanation doesn't bother me (frankly I think I'd prefer my own explanations to WOTC's), I don't like the mechanics themselves. Healing surges are okay (I fiddled with a similar mechanic myself once), but level requirements for magical items and healing all your wounds with a good sleep are ideas I'm not too fond of.

We might see a good explanation in the books though when they come out. Equally we might not, but it's a bit early to be concerned about this in my opinion. Still if you want an ad-hoc arbitrary explanation for any rules I'd be happy to come up with one for you.

 

[MerakSpielman]

As far as the healing surges are concerned...

I would assume that the vast majority of those things called "hit points" are actually actually combat endurance, being worn down, a few scratches and scuffles, morale, and so on. Only the last blow or two that actually downs the character actually injure them in a real, physical sense.

So a "healing surge" is when the hero, kicked to the floor one time too many, feels like he's on the verge of death... then he remembers his kid sister back home waiting for him, and the smell of potatoes and cabbages, and he knows that this is not his time, and gritting his teeth he pushes himself to his feet, to the amazement of the villain who was sure he was dead.

Or when Inigo Montoya says, "I'm sorry father... I tried." ...one scene later pulls the dagger out of his belly and goes on to take several wounds and win the fight.

Healing surges are the spirit of Valaria coming down and blocking that last coup de grace, saying "You wanna live forever?"

Healing surges allow Boromir to take enough arrows to fell ten normal men before finally falling.

 

[Goobermunch]

So far it doesn't look like it though. When many of the released rules have problems with believability, how can you still believe that for the designers believability is a high priority?

Derren--

Assume the following is true: every time you experience a loss of consciousness (be it from blunt trauma to your cranium or from blood loss), you suffer some degree of brain damage. How has D&D ever modeled that?

Especially given the fact that subsequent losses of consciousness tend to result in even worse injury?

D&D characters get knocked out on a daily basis, sometimes, multiple times per day. A typical brain injury takes between 6 and 18 months to resolve--if it resolves at all. The body takes weeks to replenish significant blood loss. PCs should need weeks of recover and months of rest and rehab after every fight. They don't ever get enough.

4e is no different than 1e in this regard. If you are truly unhappy with the damage modeling system for D&D, there's nothing that the 4e design team can do for you. May I recommend Rollmaster as an alternative? From what I understand, it has a very detailed and comprehensive injury and damage system, and supports the same kind of heroic fantasy role-playing (within the confines of that damage system) as D&D.

--G