Frostmarrow
First Post
So what happens if there are action/life saver points that when used end up in a soft magic points pool that spellcasters can use to pull off spells (rather than everyday cantrips)?
The Problem of Magic
- Thread starter GSHamster
- Start date
Ratskinner
Adventurer
Maybe Ability modifiers should be how many "schools" you have access to, rather than bonus spells?
I don't know- letting Wizards have lots of spells but forcing them to be specialists sounds right to me for the reasons set out above...and could be an additional point of difference between those academic arcanist, the naturals (Sorcerers), and the pact-bound (Warlocks).
I would. One of the biggest problems with the 3.x wizard (and cleric) is their ability to do everything.
The problem with SKyOdin's suggestion is that a significant baby gets tossed with the bath water.
The wizard is the only academic arcane caster in the game- everyone else is built more or less on the sorcerer model. And I think that it is an archetype that needs to remain in the game, not just for game legacy reasons, but because of the bookish mages of myth, legend, and fiction.
Forced Specialization, OTOH, does away with the Swiss Army Mage without taking away the tome-hoarding archetype.
Also, FWIW, I think Bards in particular need to be able to expand their spells known similar to the ways of Wizards- they are, after all, dealers in obscure knowledge themselves. Perhaps they are partly like the Sorcerer, partly like the Wizard?
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Crazy Jerome
First Post
In real world activities, you can often be a very capable generalist, because lots of applications don't require 100% dedication. You can get by with 80% in this, 75% in that, and 70% in the other thing. It's precisely when you really need as close to 100% as you can get--or that it's affordable to do so, that you want 100%. Thus no generalists brain surgeons. Software is a good example of a field in transition, with many specialists, some of them highly dedicated, but the bulk of activities done by generalists or semi-generalists.
To bring that model to D&D, the generalists should run about 2 levels (or 1 spell level) behind the specialists, and they cap out there. That's the real limit--that you never hit the pinnacle of your profession. Now, whether this exact model works well in D&D, I don't know, but that's close to the ratio that I expect to still encourage some people to specialize and some to remain generalists.
As for how that would get expressed mechanically, you could do that as some kind of part of the multiclassing, or just mess with the scope of the spell lists for those that stay generalists. However, I'd also be tempted to make the wizard the "arcane specialist" and then limit the spell list appropriately. Then I'd make the bard the generalists, but have his spell list run along right behind the wizard, and not cater so much to the rogue/fighter aspects. Basically, the bard becomes the "arcane generalist" due to his wide knowledge, music magic just being a part of that.
The other obvious option is to make the wizard the generalist and the sorcerer the defacto specialist.
You could do something similar with druid, cleric, etc., though it is less clear how to break that down.
One thing to watch out for is that the more you favor the generalist, the more you emphasize the modern mindset, which may pull a lot of people out of the game. A society that still has 95% of its population growing the food can't afford that level of specialization in most fields, and does without it.
To bring that model to D&D, the generalists should run about 2 levels (or 1 spell level) behind the specialists, and they cap out there. That's the real limit--that you never hit the pinnacle of your profession. Now, whether this exact model works well in D&D, I don't know, but that's close to the ratio that I expect to still encourage some people to specialize and some to remain generalists.
As for how that would get expressed mechanically, you could do that as some kind of part of the multiclassing, or just mess with the scope of the spell lists for those that stay generalists. However, I'd also be tempted to make the wizard the "arcane specialist" and then limit the spell list appropriately. Then I'd make the bard the generalists, but have his spell list run along right behind the wizard, and not cater so much to the rogue/fighter aspects. Basically, the bard becomes the "arcane generalist" due to his wide knowledge, music magic just being a part of that.
The other obvious option is to make the wizard the generalist and the sorcerer the defacto specialist.
You could do something similar with druid, cleric, etc., though it is less clear how to break that down.
One thing to watch out for is that the more you favor the generalist, the more you emphasize the modern mindset, which may pull a lot of people out of the game. A society that still has 95% of its population growing the food can't afford that level of specialization in most fields, and does without it.
Or, instead of making the generalist cap out, let them have full access to all spells...but make the saves vs their spells easier, have fewer (or smaller) dice/level for their damage spells, weaker summoned creaturees, smaller AoEs, etc.
My preference is best described with a summary of a short story I was forced to write back in high school.
It was about three wizards (an abjurer, a evoker, and a generalist) discussing their spellbooks in the abjurer's insanely warded house.
Because they were friends and basic spells were easier to learn, their spellbooks contained the same lower level spells.
The generalist complained that he did not know the higher level wards and blasts of the two specialists as he could not wrap his brain around spells like Private Sanctum or Cone of Cold and how he was forced to fill his higher slots with enhanced lower level spells. The others told him of their jealousy of his knowledge of necromancy and crafting.
That is how I'd like it. For wizards, they have access to most of the lower level spells but only specialist get the big ones. Generalists go metamagic or crafting rather than library expansion.
For sorcerors' their list list is more attuned a theme based on their ancestral or circumstantial link to magic. Warlocks are similar with their pact or arcane short cut.
Clreics and druid are much like wizard. A core spell list with deity based tweaks and spells.
It was about three wizards (an abjurer, a evoker, and a generalist) discussing their spellbooks in the abjurer's insanely warded house.
Because they were friends and basic spells were easier to learn, their spellbooks contained the same lower level spells.
The generalist complained that he did not know the higher level wards and blasts of the two specialists as he could not wrap his brain around spells like Private Sanctum or Cone of Cold and how he was forced to fill his higher slots with enhanced lower level spells. The others told him of their jealousy of his knowledge of necromancy and crafting.
That is how I'd like it. For wizards, they have access to most of the lower level spells but only specialist get the big ones. Generalists go metamagic or crafting rather than library expansion.
For sorcerors' their list list is more attuned a theme based on their ancestral or circumstantial link to magic. Warlocks are similar with their pact or arcane short cut.
Clreics and druid are much like wizard. A core spell list with deity based tweaks and spells.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Minigiant,
Prohibited schools sound a lot like a unnatural and inorganic incentive to me, but that is not so important.
The question we have to address head on is do we really want, say, a 10th level Generalist to be approximately 110% as good (or more) at evocation spells as a 8th level Evocationist?
No works for me. You seem to say yes.
IMO, if metamagick is reasonably well mechanically balanced, what you are describing is a huge win for the Generalist from the onset.
Bringing in a point I have argued in other threads, the mechanical balance problem I perceive with Wizards is not any one particular spell. If a Wizard can cast Mirror Image or Stoneskin or Improved Invis or Fly, that is okay. The real problem is once we hit double digits EVERY Wizard has optimal combos. Everyone has Mirror Image AND Stoneskin AND Improved Invis AND Fly at their fingertips. Frankly, that causes a lot of problems, and it is boring to boot.
Your vision does not seem to touch that issue at all. You only delaying the inevitable a couple levels, at best. Perhaps, not even that (if metamagick is powerful).
Prohibited schools sound a lot like a unnatural and inorganic incentive to me, but that is not so important.
The question we have to address head on is do we really want, say, a 10th level Generalist to be approximately 110% as good (or more) at evocation spells as a 8th level Evocationist?
No works for me. You seem to say yes.
IMO, if metamagick is reasonably well mechanically balanced, what you are describing is a huge win for the Generalist from the onset.
Bringing in a point I have argued in other threads, the mechanical balance problem I perceive with Wizards is not any one particular spell. If a Wizard can cast Mirror Image or Stoneskin or Improved Invis or Fly, that is okay. The real problem is once we hit double digits EVERY Wizard has optimal combos. Everyone has Mirror Image AND Stoneskin AND Improved Invis AND Fly at their fingertips. Frankly, that causes a lot of problems, and it is boring to boot.
Your vision does not seem to touch that issue at all. You only delaying the inevitable a couple levels, at best. Perhaps, not even that (if metamagick is powerful).
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It does count for that.
My vision is that from every wizard can learn the basics. They all can get the 1st-3rd level spells. These spells are heavily resticted and hard by Sanderson standards. Wizards would have to be creative to bypass these restriction.
The more powerful spells and techniques would be for specific specialists and metamages of higher levels. Long term flight is only accessible to transmuters and buff mages. Invisibility that doesn't disappear after a simple action or Persistent images is for illusionists only. Learning level 4 or higher spell outside of your specialty would be extremely expensive, time-consuming, or impossible.
So cross school high magic combinations would be impossible unless the caster spends years off or dumps a lot of their treasure into research.
