The problem of saves.

[takyris]

My rule of thumb: NEVER remove free will from a PC, unless they're willing to roleplay it, or it's a combat situation.

I believe we have a difference of opinion. I certainly let characters make choices. I encourage it. In the case of this hypothetical world, they'd have the choice of whether to put on their Call Anchor, whether to go out into a dangerous wilderness that doesn't have Mercy Walls (to catch people under the effect of a Call), and even whether to try to attack the Call Anchors of enemies, a potential death-blow if successful just before a Call comes.

I wouldn't ask players to roleplay falling off a cliff and into a pool of molten lava, and then find another way to do it when they decided not to do it.

By their ability to gain levels, PCs are unique. Therefore, it's reasonable to expect them to be resistant to The Call.

I disagree with this on just about the strongest possible level. I don't dislike you, I don't disrespect you, but that sentence is so darn antithetical to what I believe that it sends shivers down my spine.

Maybe in YOUR game the PCs are unique. In my game, the PCs have only recently reached the level where they're considered forces to be reckoned with. The average guard on the wall is a third-level fighter. The old veteran guardsman might be as high as seventh or ninth level. My players don't think that just because they play their characters, their characters have any more right to survive than anyone else in the world. That's CRPG thinking -- "Oh, this one doesn't have a name, he's not worth talking to."

OTOH, Any d*mn NPC you please cannot resist it, including the ones that owe the PC money.

So pretend you're in this world. The Call exists, passing through towns on a regular basis, about once every two weeks or so. You know that everyone is affected by the Call. Everyone, a rare group of monks excepted -- and they don't advertise.

But now, some adventuring troupe goes off and kills some some brigands, comes back with better equipment, and announces that if you just concentrate real hard, you can resist the Call -- despite hundreds of years of NOBODY resisting it? Does that make sense to you? The only possible explanation is that these adventurers are either mythical heroes of legend of the gods themselves in mortal form -- and if that's the game you wanna play, say hi to Tanis and Raistlin for me -- or better yet, keep reloading that fight against the black dragon until you get those good rolls you need to take her out.

Perhaps I AM being unfair to my PCs, if this is how the rest of the world plays.

As I said, I'm not gonna run this campaign anyway -- it was a mostly hypothetical argument, and it raised pretty much what I expected: Some people would be fine in a well-told game that used no-save effects, while others would absolutely loathe such a game, and me for running it.

-Tacky

 

[Utrecht]

Was the call that infrequent???? I was under the impression that it was a daily/everyother day thing. For example in the first book, when they are building the railroad, they had to plan for it each day.

 

[takyris]

Ute-mon,

Not a clue. Been several months since I read the book. I thought that it was on the level of once a week, though, but not predictable enough so that you'd go out without your Call Anchor on any given day. I could be wrong. I could be way wrong. Possibly, words could not express the extent of my wrongness. All I remembered was that there were some areas in which there was no Call, some areas in which the Call was persistent, and many areas in which the Call happened with varying frequency.

-Tacky

 

[Utrecht]

You know I can't remember the frequency either - I just thought that it was more ofter - of course it is probably different for the Americans than for the Aussies.

After all the Americans were far from the sea and located in mountains - both which seemed to dilute the effects of the call.

 

[Victim]

You could just define the Call as a No save, SR: yes, Mind-affecting compulsion. Special magical defenses like Mind Blank, Spell Resistance, Protection from evil and such would prove effective, but normal cloaks of resistance wouldn't be. Then throw in a feat that gives a save and requires Iron Will.

Players would then have several ways (gadgets, wards, feats, not being mammalian) of avoiding the call, but it would still require careful planning and such. If someone goes to the trouble of Quickening a Pro Evil, then I'd let them cast it when the Call hit too.

 

[Siridar]

I'd do it as a no-save effect, where SR: yes, doesn't effect Outsiders and have a Resist Call feat with Iron Will as a prereq. in order to gain a Save (DC 25?). Have the engineered species as a new race with an immunity or the Resist Call feat and a bonus to save versus the Call. Have a PrC for the monks with the Resist Call feat being part of the prerequisite and they also gain a bonus to save as they advance in levels, becoming immune at 10th.

Certain mind-affecting spells could negate the Call as well as Dispel Magic and similar spells.

But that's just how I'd do it.

 

[Ace]

Hey, Consequence,

.

Ace, I think your viewpoint is the one that made me worried in the first place. Could you be more specific? Are you saying that you'd walk out of a game set with environmental hazards? If, for example, we took away the Call and replaced it with the following:

Rain of Acid

SNIPS NASTY POISON RAIN STATS I WAS CONSIDERING SAVING FOR MY OWN EVIL PURPOSES MWAHAHAHAHA

So Ace, if a DM told you about that acid rain in advance and said, "This is the world your character grew up in. The rain isn't evil. It's not out to get you. It's an environmental hazard. Everyone in town has lost family members to sudden squalls, and everyone knows that, heavy and bulky as it is, you ALWAYS carry a heavy slicker, and you make your way quickly from one Wayshelter to the next." If a DM told you that, would you walk out of the game?

Or is your complaint that the PCs don't get a special "They're the PCs" way around the problem?

-Tacky

I am very choosy about what games I will play in. In fact have turned down 8 so far this year, primarily because I didn't like the setting or premise.

These games included Star Wars (I like D20 and the rules work fine I just hate Star Wars) L5R2e ( I don't like Samurai) D&D (Arabic game with too many wierd religious overtones) Vampire (I hate playing a vampire) D&D polynesian (too wierd) D&D Traditional (Planned ultra slow advancement and a GM who still thinks its 2e)
Everquest Historical (no way) and a LARP

My general rule is if the game has (outside of occasional combat effects) character helplessness I won't play.

I want, no demand, control over my characters actions at all times (except the magic spells/powers situation) I can tolerate fear checks, barely.

You see in real life I often feel helpless to do anything or change anything. Playing RPG's let me do heroic stuff. Being french- fried by an acid rain shower or mind controled by evil whales would take away my sense of control and would not be fun.

Most of the people in my group feel the same way so at elast with my groupI am not alone

If I don't like the rules interpretation, rules set, setting, plot, premise or whatever I just choose not to play.

Now before you worry I never quit midsession unless the game crashes and burns or real life intervenes. Still before I play I always explain my rules


Tell me what its about up front. If you aren't clear (or don't know) its an automatic decline

Also I get three sessions to decide. If I stick out the three
sessions I will stick out the whole game, baring real life intervening

My time is just too valuable to waste on bad gaming or on something I don't want to do.

 

[takyris]

I think that's an extremely reasonable way to handle the situation, and I'm impressed at your ability to walk away from a game with which you're not comfortable.

Was that me snickering about stealing my acid rain, or you? Either way is fine.

Just out of curiosity, how did you feel about Dark Sun? I was thinking of the acidic nasty rain as something that would work real well in Dark Sun.

And if I was gonna put acidic rain into a d20 Modern campaign, now that you bring it up, I'd do something to empower the characters...

Examples:

Skill: Survival: DC 15 to cut damage to hourly and not per minute. A 25 or higher negates the damage entirely.

Tough Hero Talent: Acid Reduction. I'd make it clear that the rain is acidic, and any ability or substance that works against acid will protect the heroes.

Expensive but findable oils that can be rubbed on the body to give temporary protection from the rain.

Etc.

In one sense, this empowers the characters. Someone can say, "Look, I don't care about being the best fighter out there. I wanna be the crazy guy who keeps fighting in the acidic rain while everyone else runs away. I can outlast anyone in a rainstorm."

In another sense, there's still no saving throw to reduce the damage.

I've allowed Preventative damage control, but not Reactive damage control.

As a player, how would you feel about that? Would you be happy knowing that there were things you could do to make it unlikely that you'd be in serious hurt from the rain most of the time, but that if bandits stripped you naked and tied you spread-eagled in the middle of a field while the clouds formed overhead, you were S-outta-L -- how would that play for you?

It'd be a bit like playing in a campaign set in something like Hawai'i, with lots of volcanic activity. Yeah, you can get the magical fire charm, you can put ranks in Balance, and you can take care to stay away from cliffs overlooking pits of magma, but if some bad guy bull rushes you over the edge, you're still boned.

Hope I'm not a pain -- I find this really interesting. Does the possibility of Preparatory Defense make the player more likely to accept a lack of Reactive Defense potential?

-Tacky