D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[lingual]

This is not in accordance how you defined 'evil' earlier. You said that harming others for greater good is unambiguously evil. Also, what is harm, who is innocent and what is proportionate? Is it evil to restrict civil liberties of 'innocent' people (i.e. causing them harm) in order to protect the health of others? According to your earlier definition this would be evil. Also who decided these things? what if I disagree with the GM what is evil or chaotic and what is not? And how is this mess in any way useful instead of just being pointless and confusing?

Your post brings to my mind the Zerothnlaw of Robotics

 

[Flamestrike]

Would Robert Duvall from Godfather be LE? He pays off government bureaucrats and obviously breaks the law. It could be argued though that he is personally very disciplined and loyal to his organization and therefore "lawful". But he also cheats on his wife and breaks many public laws. I don't think it's that simple. I could get on board with LE being in his statblock though.

Lawful people and 'following the law' is not the same thing.

Frank Castle is LE and he breaks laws daily. Ditto Batman (also lawful) and breaking laws every night.

 

[Flamestrike]

Depends on the edition. Pre-4e they were. At least as a quick check whenever you requested to renew your granted powers. If they found you lacking at that point, no new spells for you

Even in 3E there were feats that let you totally stray from your church's alignment wasn't there?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I didn't.

Killing a person in self defence as a last resort in a proportionate manner is not the same thing as killing someone for the 'greater good.

So killing someone in defence of others is evil then? And even if we accept that directly protecting others from an aggressor justifies hurting said aggressor, we're still not in the clear. Was every military operation that resulted any collateral civilian casualties evil? Even if that was done to stop genocidal fascist dictatorship and thus save countless more lives? Also, you skipped my lesser harm example earlier. Are Covid restrictions evil? They definitely harm a lot of people financially and psychologically and those people are pretty 'innocent' to the situation. These things are far from clear cut.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Unlike every other alignment thread, there's an actual worthwhile and engaging subject in the OP and we're all doing our level best to ignore it to talk about the opposite of that.

How is that unlike every other alignment thread?

 

[lingual]

Lawful people and 'following the law' is not the same thing.

Frank Castle is LE and he breaks laws daily. Ditto Batman (also lawful) and breaking laws every night.

I would argue that following the law is a component of being Lawful though. Just a component. Again, there is rarely a one size fits all for complex characters that are beyond one dimensional.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Even in 3E there were feats that let you totally stray from your church's alignment wasn't there?

There was the Grey Guard PrC for Jack Bauer style villainous Paladins.

 

[Vaalingrade]

How is that unlike every other alignment thread?

The worthwhile element.

Like we could be talking pretender gods and faithless clergy and other interesting things that would serve the game, but instead we're talking about alignment.

 

[Flamestrike]

Look, I don't want to get sucked into another alignment thread.

Its always the same small number of people who want to try and assert murder and genocide as being morally acceptable when done for a 'greater good.

That argument has no place in my games. It's evil. Heck - that argument has no place in a civil society either.

I have no problem with CHARACTER that thinks that of course and goes on murder sprees or genocidal campaigns. They're just almost certainly evilly aligned whether they accept that or not

Anyway I'm weighing out of this. I've seen this exact thread before and it's awful.

Ciao

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The worthwhile element.

Like we could be talking pretender gods and faithless clergy and other interesting things that would serve the game, but instead we're talking about alignment.

But that's what the existence of alignment does. It makes every discussion about potentially interesting and complex moral problems collapse into inane debate about two letters.