D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Fenris-77]

Oh yes, lets use fluff to separate humanoids from the aberrations so we have a clear idea what to be upset about. Good lord. You'll take biology as a fine justification, but not magic, in a fantasy game? Where's your sense of perspective?

 

[Mecheon]

If they're god made them evil, they're evil. generally speaking.

Except for all of the times in D&D lore where they've clearly broken away from that. Are we really, honestly having this argument in a post Warcraft universe still? The idea of the good orc has long since switched from 'a dramatic, unexpected twist' and has become fairly part and parcel. Not supported by lore, and not supported by how people actually play the game.

Just like how elves are clearly not good despite their gods intentions, especially in Dragonlance where at least one of their groups us a cultural-erasing race trying to destroy another elven culture and yet allegedly 'the good race specifically designed to be good'.

 

[Fenris-77]

Except for all of the times in D&D lore where they've clearly broken away from that. Are we really, honestly having this argument in a post Warcraft universe still? The idea of the good orc has long since switched from 'a dramatic, unexpected twist' and has become fairly part and parcel. Not supported by lore, and not supported by how people actually play the game.

Just like how elves are clearly not good despite their gods intentions, especially in Dragonlance where at least one of their groups us a cultural-erasing race trying to destroy another elven culture and yet allegedly 'the good race specifically designed to be good'.

Feel free to read my posts on the last page. At no point did I say this needed to be the case for every orc, or whatever, just the majority. I addressed that upstream. Call it asked and answered,

 

[Minigiant]

Exactly!!!!!
This is a case where the video game industry influenced the hobby instead of the other way around as was usual in the 80s.

Now, the races in D&D were never set in stones as there were always exceptions. But somehow, this fact got forgotten down the line and now many are outraged at something that is only a perception and not the norm. Yes there has been DMs out there (and players too) that played alignments as a set in stone thing and abused the hell out of the principles, but they were not the norm. And yet, this perception persist even today. The culprits are not alignments but the DMs and players that abused that system.

Well it was the norm. TSR and WOTC rarely put any spotlight on evil humaniods who weren't followers of their evil gods. They created the cliched stories. Sothe norm for the 70s, 80s, and the early 90s was this.

The video game industry, because they would have to by IP, were forced to put brainpower to their plots. Especially since video games had more lore than TT games and the amount grew over time. So in video games orcs, gobliniods, evil elves, and beastfolk were given solid motivation forbeing evil, had the stupid bits cut out, or highlighted the good ones.

Fans coming from that to D&D would see ironclad alignment on humanoids to be jarring. So the tide turned.

5e being a nostalgia edition, copied the old lore forgetting that a huge chunk of the fandom no longer uses those concepts because of video games.

 

[Fenris-77]

I believe Drizzt Do'Urden gives the lie to you little pantomime. I'm pointing specifically to the bit where you say TSR and WOTC rarely put any spotlight on evil humaniods who weren't followers of their evil gods. To which I reply, um, say what?

 

[Minigiant]

I'm just going to throw this out there, every campaign I run, or have ever run, has some sort of 'evil' race. Every. Single. One. Fantasy is a subset of romance, and it needs a certain amount of black and white to function, even in the grimmest of grimdark settings. There's no light without shadow and all that. Now, pretty obviously this needs to be done without racial shading of any kind, but there's nothing wrong with the basic idea.

It doesn't have to be an evil race. In modern time, we use evil organizations.
The Empire vs the Rebel Alliance.
Darkspawn vs Everyone else
Cult of Thanos vs Avengers
etc

You only see evil races anymore when mind control, fleshcrafting, or otherworldly beings are involved.

 

[Helldritch]

Well it was the norm. TSR and WOTC rarely put any spotlight on evil humaniods who weren't followers of their evil gods. They created the cliched stories. Sothe norm for the 70s, 80s, and the early 90s was this.

The video game industry, because they would have to by IP, were forced to put brainpower to their plots. Especially since video games had more lore than TT games and the amount grew over time. So in video games orcs, gobliniods, evil elves, and beastfolk were given solid motivation forbeing evil, had the stupid bits cut out, or highlighted the good ones.

Fans coming from that to D&D would see ironclad alignment on humanoids to be jarring. So the tide turned.

5e being a nostalgia edition, copied the old lore forgetting that a huge chunk of the fandom no longer uses those concepts because of video games.

On this I agree. But there is room for both vision to coexist side by side as a campaign setting is by definition unique. What you find in one might not even exist in an other. Just as what works for a table might not work at an other. Alignments have worked and still work as a basic tool to get along a story very fast. It is a simple tool easy to use, easy to ignore.

 

[Fenris-77]

It doesn't have to be an evil race. In modern time, we use evil organizations.
The Empire vs the Rebel Alliance.
Darkspawn vs Everyone else
Cult of Thanos vs Avengers
etc

You only see evil races anymore when mind control, fleshcrafting, or otherworldly beings are involved.

Sure. What's your point? We can have evil races in some contexts. That was my point.

 

[Mecheon]

Feel free to read my posts on the last page. At no point did I say this needed to be the case for every orc, or whatever, just the majority. I addressed that upstream. Call it asked and answered,

"Blame it on the gods" is a complete non-argument because I'm going to turn it into "Why doesn't the reverse apply?" Or start looking at all of the cases where things are described as acts that evil creatures would commit, but because its one of the supposedly nice player races, oh no, we can't slather elves with the evil brush so they get described as 'neutral' or 'trust me its actually good we promise'

Alignment has proven itself to be handled poorly since day one when they brought good versus evil into it

 

[Minigiant]

On this I agree. But there is room for both vision to coexist side by side as a campaign setting is by definition unique. What you find in one might not even exist in an other. Just as what works for a table might not work at an other. Alignments have worked and still work as a basic tool to get along a story very fast. It is a simple tool easy to use, easy to ignore.

Oh. Alignment is great when used properly. It's a great shortcut. However running your whole setting on it without having massive holes it tough to do as it's just a basic tool.