D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Crimson Longinus]

Yep. My side is going by how alignment works in D&D, and the other side is trying to apply relative morality to something that isn't relative.

But it is the real life, thus the disconnect. Or at least it is relative in a sense that people cannot agree what it objectively is. So trying to force it to be objective in fiction causes problems, as that is always someone making a value judgement and forcing their morals on others. I don't need the game writers to tell me whether elves or orcs are 'right' in their conflict. It's not a question that should have an one objective answer.

 

[Cadence]

That depends how active the gods were - and the relationship of the gods to their flock. There's at least one Jewish midrach where logic trumps G-d in the real world despite G-d making their opinion known through miracles.

I'll have to google that one. Thanks!

I'd be curious here as to which church and what exactly happened.

Googling Matthew Hood baptism turns it up.

You did. Literally. ("they are said they get to do them because of their exemplary faith or perfection")

I was picturing the things irl religions for the former post and the one here was about it never being required in the game. I was imagining that "miracles" happen a lot more in D&D in the form of clerical magic from a bunch of clerics than they do in most religious stories where there aren't a ton of prophets or whatnot at one time. But it just hit me that those miracles in D&D aren't as miraculous if there are also a bunch of wizards and sorcerers and... doing similar things.

But anyway, in Jonah, trying to dodge the commands ends with him in a fish. And David gets punished as well. Were there some messages to other prophets about the need to go do what they were told to do as well? For the perfection part, I was picturing a Hindu story about someone being able to cross a river because they had perfected their craft, but I can't find it on google.

A lot depends on how active the deities are. In Eberron the deities may not even exist. In the Realms it seems Mystra manifests every ten minutes or so.

Now I'm picturing Mystra showing up in odd stains or strangely shaped pieces of food...

It depends what the God is and what their relationship to their worshippers and to their church is. And who actually sends the visions.

Yes.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the problem is well...

poor use of the tool was being taught as the default and bad way to many incoming D&D fans.

The last time that was taught as a default was 13+ years ago. They've had 13 years to learn the correct way and there are more new players than old ones at this point who never had that poor use taught to them. It's no longer an issue to anyone not living in the distant RPG past.

 

[Maxperson]

I can’t imagine anyone in real life having this problem. You don’t seem to have a problem with “Lawful”, “Chaotic” or “Evil” being super vague and open to interpretation (despite the PHB devoting a single line to each), but describing a fey creature as “mischievous pranksters” causes you to throw up your hands in confusion?

Because it's more vague than alignment is. With CE I know that the pranks will be vicious and harmful. With CG I know that they will be harmless. With CN they can be harmless or perhaps an inconvenience, but won't be vicious. It's better to have both alignment and prankster than just prankster or just alignment, but if I only get one of the two, alignment tells me far more about how to play the creature than prankster would.

 

[Oofta]

The last time that was taught as a default was 13+ years ago. They've had 13 years to learn the correct way and there are more new players than old ones at this point who never had that poor use taught to them. It's no longer an issue to anyone not living in the distant RPG past.

But ... but ... somewhere someone might be playing D&D wrong!

 

[Cadence]

The entire point of the Cleric is that they believe in what they follow to such a great degree that they get magical powers for it. Either through faith alone if alignment or philosophy, or from the god that they believe in. You literally could not find a hypocritical Cleric, because anyone like that would fail to have the required belief to get powers in the first place.

In 1e, does the level of hypocrisy allowed go with the level of the cleric? (They cast the lowest level spells on their own, but the highest come from a direct grant from a greater god).

Such absolute faith and belief is very rare, which is why in my world a major Temple will only have a handful of Clerics and the rest are just non-magical priests. A minor temple probably has 1 or 2 Clerics, and a shrine or small town church probably does not have a cleric at all.

Is arcane magic similarly rare?

In a world where clerical magic is rare, how does the balance fall on wanting them to stay at the temple and to go out adventuring? Are they only allowed out when the hierarchy says so? Or does having enough faith to get spells mean they have divine approval to chart their own course? Does not having spells mean one has lesser faith?

 

[Maxperson]

I still do not understand what you need the alignment for. How would absence of alignment prevent you from deciding whether your character is honourable or murderous?

A tool is an aid to something that you may or may not be able to do on your own, but even if you can do it yourself, it still makes it EASIER.

 

[Maxperson]

I have worked as a professional illustrator for RPGs. The art doesn't randomly appear, there is art director and there are notes send to the artists, there's an approval process. The orcs look like they do in the art because WotC wanted them to look like that. It is not in any way of lesser value than the text.

Yep. No matter how you slice it, though, art is a secondary vision. It's someone working second hand on someone else's vision. Then it does get approved, yes. I said that pages ago. Regardless, the description is the primary vision, not the art. I am going to go with the primary vision, not the secondary one.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Do you not understand what a tool is for? It's an aid to something that you may or may not be able to do on your own, but even if you can do it yourself, it still makes it EASIER.

It is incredibly bad tool for doing a thing that is so laughably easy that is weird that you'd need a tool at all, let alone such an awkward and clunky tool which is likely to be more of an hindrance.

 

[Maxperson]

I wonder if part of the loyalty to alignment is couched in the feeling it gives to 'know' you're 'right' about something that establishes your literal moral superiority and in the past allowed one to literally punish the transgressors.

Considering that the vast majority of those in these threads on the side of keeping alignment are happy that the mechanics(ability to punish) are gone, no, that's completely wrong.